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[Michael Driscoll]

I have always thought that older sounded better than new, and I am thinking about Paolo Soprani or Hohner 2 row but I suppose it could apply to all.  I was speaking to a young player, and I am not an experienced player, who says that he prefers the new because the buttons are faster.  Is it because the action is better now, or have the mechanisms just stiffened up like the rest of us?

[Thrupenny Bit]

I suspect there are many facets to this question.
From my perspective, I bought a second hand new-ish Castagnari to learn on simply because I found going round many stalls at a festival the majority of boxes needed pumping so hard to get any sound from it put me off. Coming from a very responsive English Concertina I simply took a deep breath then voted with my wallet for the best responsive box.
I now realise that something like an old Hohner that has been set up properly by one of several excellent fettlers on this forum can have an equally good action and is very responsive, plus a really good sound.
Though as a total novice with very limited knowledge that wasn't apparent when trying boxes from a lot of stalls at a festival.....
Q

[Michael Driscoll]

Thanks for that, Thrupenny Bit, I didn"t say it would be an easy question to answer!  i think you are right._ I can probably make my old boxes as responsive, with a bit of help.

[Thrupenny Bit]

I was just thinking on......
I'm now a reasonably proficient player, and can get a tune out of my boxes, as opposed to an absolute beginner when buying my first box as above.
At the end of last summer, wondering if I could take my box on a trip to Italy with the morris, my friend who is one of our main box players, said I could always borrow his. He only plays for the morris then reverts to stringed things if tunes happen. Great, no need to drag mine along.
Tunes happened, he started twanging things so I grabbed his box. I couldn't get anything out of it! I don't think his relatively new Hohner Erica has ever been tuned since he bought it. It took so much effort I was always way behind the tunes and simply struggling to do anything with it. It was a surprise and a reminder as to why I did what I did at the beginning.
Just goes to prove that set up is everything.
Q

[John MacKenzie (Cugiok)]

I've been all around the houses, old/new/old/new. I am now a devotee of old boxes. Apart from one odd Hagstrom, I am now an old Hohner owner. All of them apart from one, (waiting for the money) have been refurbed, slightly dried tuning wise, and are a source of great joy. One day I might learn to play them better.

Sir John

[Rob2Hook]

Just goes to prove that set up is everything.
Q

Doubly surprising for a string player as every string instrument I've bought needed setting up from new.  They are just assembled and sold, the neww owner is expected to adjust the action and intonation themselves - or pay a luthier to do it, which may or may not achieve what you actually wanted.

At the top end of the market, a box is properlu set up, whereas evn if you spend thousands on a Gibson guitar the action is set to the maximum playable height and nearly everyone will want to lower it.

Rob.

[Andy Next Tune]

Having tried a number of cheap new boxes in recent years e.g. Sandpiper, Sherwood, their actions are more responsive than the average new Hohner. However the sound they make has usually been disappointing compared to that average Hohner Erica/Pokerwork. All of them will be improved by a visit to one of our esteemed fettlers to sort out the reed setup, tuning and action.

After that, it really comes down to the type of music you play and the sound you like. I own a mix of newish Italian boxes and revitalised Hohners, and each has its own 'personality'. suited to different things - ceilidh band, morris, solo, etc

Andy

[george garside]

I think it depends more on the individual box than on its age.  My 'stable'  consists of c1960 hohner gaelic - cant fault it in any way but its been very well cared for . C 1960  Casali 3 row - nice but not near as nice as the gaelic. -25 year old serenellini mml .   has been and still is a workhorse for workships/sessions/ceilids etc   - never repaired/tuned and plays as good as ever.  german hohhner 4 stop in G -can't fault it.  Do er uuppers hohner trichjord c1950 or earlier, hohner BC double ray 12 bass plays well even without doing up! battered german pokerwork  DG bought for £25  30 years ago as 'grot box' for wet weather morris- still ok.  castagnari lilly DG bought new 3 years ago  to keep as 'old age' box for when I become knackered  - my least played box, and probably still will be when I get knackered!

I also think there is a misconception amongst many begginers or newer players that an expensive posh box will enable them to play better whereas it is simply the amount of time and effort put into learning that enables one to play better.

My  standard recommendation for anybody starting (DG) is  a (german if possible) pokerwork or Erica in decent condition

george

[Thrupenny Bit]

some of the newer kids on the block, such as Sandpiper, seem to be paying more attention to setting up the boxes before leaving the factory. Possibly knowing their target audience here in the UK might have a positive effect on such things.
What is surprising, as Rob alludes to, is that a lot of players such as my friend seem to be unaware of the difference setting up a box properly can make. Until I tried a properly fettled Hohner relatively recently I had no idea how good they can be, not the huge effort required to make a sound or fingers disappearing down the button holes such as I first encountered them on the festival stalls some years back.
Within this forum community we are aware of set up and have the advice of several good fettlers to remind us. Other 'lone players' sadly miss out on a lot of information that the forum collective amasses and talk about regularly.
Q

[Michael Driscoll]

Thank you for your contributions - i shall consider same - is it to the point old or new? response mechanism? michael

[Thrupenny Bit]

I'm not quite sure what you mean.......
I do like the playability of new, I now realise old can be made to play comparably once set up.
The sound preference depends on what you like and what you want to play. I like the light swing sound of my Castagnari but for some English stuff also am becoming a fan of the old Hohner sound. This might be because a lot of the older players were brought up on Hohners as Castagnari and similar brands weren't available,  so to many people's ears, the Hohner sound equates to a quintessentially English sound.
....and these are only my personal opinions, others will vary!
cheers
Q

[boxer]

For power and response and lightness, give me an old Hohner any day (as the text on my log-on implies) 

The only weakness of some of the old Hohners is the cheaply constructed r/h key/pallet mechanism.  Good mechanics can improve them beyond recognition, making them as light and responsive and with as little vertical key travel as the mechanisms on more expensive boxes. 

However good the mechanics may be, they can't change the Hohner mechanism's inherent flimsiness, and the tendency for buttons to move laterally under sideways pressure, striking the keyboard and making the clattering noise that often accompanies a spirited recital on a Hohner box.

Although I can play the same repertoire on my Pokerwork as I play on more expensive boxes, I find it harder to play difficult figures cleanly on the Pokerwork, chiefly because of the tendency of the buttons to move (or seem to move) ever so slightly sideways when my fingertips land on them.

If I played all my tunes at moderate speeds this wouldn't be much of an issue.  I'm occasionally expected to produce reels at 110 bpm, and that's the time when the Hohner's (and my own) weakness starts to show.

[Michael Driscoll]

yeah  what is "set up" ? I know how easy it is to reduce the action on a guitar, but what about a button box?

[Thrupenny Bit]

Any fettlers here will give chapter and verse, but in my limited knowledge.......
Putting something under the buttons such as leather to limit the travel of the button.
Make sure all the mechanisms that boxer was talking about are set to the maximum efficiency, just enough to lift a pallet to let the reed sound but not too much.
Make sure the reeds are set. Not only in tune, the gap in the reed frame is correct and things like height in the reedblock means they can speak quickly without undue heavy squeezing. Essentially making sure everything works to the maximum rather than just works. As a guitar can be adjusted, making a huge difference to playability and sound, so can minor tweaks transform a box.
Q

[Michael Driscoll]

thanks, thrupenny bit, you are now turning out to be a pound coin!

[Thrupenny Bit]

 
Thanks...... It's probably called inflation!
Q

[benammiswift]

Hi there

I think you will never get a definitive answer to this as it's very personal but I'll give you my opinion. I started out on an old hohner Erica that was in dire dire need of work and was really loose. Saying that i have played Ericas fettled by people on the forum here and they are truly wonderful so it really is all down to setup on the old hohner camp.

I bought 2 new CASTAGNARI melodeons as my melodeons because i played my dad's and they weren't mine, didn't suit me at all, if you get me. The CASTAGNARI are very different to hohners. I prefer the clean sound of the Castagnari more than the Hohner sound and prefer the reeds in it aswell. The action on the Castagnari is just something else aswell, it just plays itself for me, halves my job. For me personally Castagnari anyday but i have reasons other than just preferring the Casta to buy one of those ( to my knowledge Hohner don't do an 18 bass melodeon haha)

Try it though. I love old hohners, they really are great and have a unique tone i just prefer my Castas.

Benammi

[Michael Driscoll]

we have gone off point a bit. But to my luddite ears, the Castis,
. have a twang, the Hohners a ring, and the P.S. about right!

[AirTime]

I think there are two aspects to the question. One the playing action, the other the sound.

As far as playing action, I think modern Castagnari's definitely play quieter & smoother than the average old Hohner. Having said that  have never played a "fully" fettled Hohner with limited button travel, heavily padded palettes, bushing etc.

The sound is an entirely different thing. I don't think Castagnari's sound "better" - just different. Drier tuned Hohners, thirds out, sound very different to wet-tuned Hohners with full bass/chords going. It seems to me that Hohners ... & some other older boxes, have greater "resonance" than Castagnari's, which creates a different effect. It always seems to me that the modern Castagnari sound allows for a more complex interplay between the bass & treble ends (Andy Cutting style) whereas with older, more resonant boxes the left hand features more naturally as an accompaniment to the right hand melody.

[triskel]

My newest box these days is a 50-year-old, 3-voice, Paolo Soprani - it has a fantastic action and a superlative sound, that sometimes make you do things you didn't know you could... 

I'm not looking for a new one.