Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Mike Mccarthy]

This is more just an out of curiosity type of question as the answer won't effect my decision to buy one, but was curious what keys a D/G an play in. I have a number of tune books and it'd be nice to see which tunes I can play in the melodeon and which ones will force me to learn some transposing skills.

[Steve_freereeder]

This is more just an out of curiosity type of question as the answer won't effect my decision to buy one, but was curious what keys a D/G an play in. I have a number of tune books and it'd be nice to see which tunes I can play in the melodeon and which ones will force me to learn some transposing skills.

As the specification suggests, a D/G melodeon plays very happily in the basic 'home' keys of keys of D major and G major; also E minor/dorian and A minor/dorian.

C major, A major, B minor and F# minor are also possible with varying amounts of fudging needed if some of the accidentals are not always available in the required octaves (depends on the particular melodeon layout - they're not necessarily always the same).

Other keys and fragments of scales may well be possible, especially if a helper row of accidentals is fitted. But the further you get away from those basic home keys, the more awkward and less intuitive the fingering and bellows directions become.

[george garside]

What Steve said plus the DG melodeon is a very intuitive instrument when played in its home keys of D & G  and therefore lends itself particularly well to playing by ear/from memory.   On that basis many of the tunes that you may know, presumably having played them on another instrument from the music books you refer to,  should be playable  from memory in D or G irrespective of the key they are set out in in your books.

george

[richard.fleming]

Someone needs to point out to a beginner that the semi-tone boxes (B/C, Csharp/D being the commonest, for the benefit of said beginner) are fully chromatic and hence far more versatile than DG boxes (which I believe were foisted on the English folk revival by someone at Cecil Sharp House who hadn't thought deeply enough about it). They are no more difficult than DG-type boxes. No doubt some will find this view controversial, of course.

[playandteach]

Depends what you mean by versatile. It's good to explain the differences and range of options, but versatile is a qualitative judgement. I agree that a BC box can play in more keys in the right hand, but I don't think that's the full picture. Mike, you'd do well to explore the options first - normal advice here is to share what types of music you like listening to or want to end up playing.

[george garside]

As one who plays both DG and BC  as well as that 'diabolical contraption (as some would have it!) the BCC#  I agree that both systems  are more or less as easy to learn - but only just!

To anyone who can play a mouthie the DG (or other quint boxes) work , on the row, in exactly the same way, the sucks and blows being the same as the ins and outs of the bellwos.   The 8 bass Dg also has the  ability to provide rhythmic accompaniment for eg morris and ceilidh band work.  The DG also fits in very well  in 'English' music sessions  as that is the system most will using so when in Rome etc.

The BC whilst being technicaly  chromatic  is fine for keys FBCGDAE  but not that easy in the flat keys to which the C#D is better suited.  The BCC# is  readily chromatic  and all 12 keys are relatively easy to cope with ( and most have stradella bass providing decent accompanyment and rhythm drive as necessary. The 8 Bass  BC bass are of very limited use and many do not use them. A BC with 12 stradella bass is more useful  eg some hohner double rays. The BC layout is generally speaking easier to finger fast and that is one of the reasons it is very popular for Irish trad  . It is also a great 'treble' box  for those who are not bothered about a lot of bass bashing!

In my opinion neither is better than t'other  and   its very much horses for courses  and there is absolutely no reason  why both can't be played. 

george

[Mike Mccarthy]

Thanks steve, that is exactly the information I was after

Someone needs to point out to a beginner that the semi-tone boxes (B/C, Csharp/D being the commonest, for the benefit of said beginner) are fully chromatic and hence far more versatile than DG boxes (which I believe were foisted on the English folk revival by someone at Cecil Sharp House who hadn't thought deeply enough about it). They are no more difficult than DG-type boxes. No doubt some will find this view controversial, of course.

Now this I did not know, thank you. Requires more investigation I think.

Playandteach, my listening is pretty broad, but if i had to boil it down I'd say English folk, so think faustas, leverett, dipper malkin etc etc but also stuff like show of hands, kate rusby, more singer/songwritery stuff. So pretty broad.  I play in a folk orchestra, and most of the stuff is in D or G or keys that are sympathetic to those instruments.

[Lester]

The type of box, 4th apart or half step, is, in my opinion, driven by the type of music you wish to play. Yes you can play English lumpy tunes on a b/c etc but they will not sound like lumpy English tunes in the same way that it is v difficult to get the same sound from a piano accordion. So it's horses for courses.

As to

DG boxes (which I believe were foisted on the English folk revival by someone at Cecil Sharp House who hadn't thought deeply enough about it)

This is partially true, the D/G box was specifically made for the English market but as choice from the continental C/F or G/C, half step boxes were never in the equation.

[Tone Dumb Greg]

As you might gather, this can be quite an emotive subject 

As Lester says, the DG box is ideally suited to English playing and is, by far, the most common in South Devon in the circles I move in: Mostly morris but an awful lot of morris musicians are involved in other stuff. I think North Devon is probably much the same.

Having said that, there is a common condition common amongst these people, known as MAD (Melodeon Acquisition Disorder) which can lead to marital breakdown and institutionalisation (where an institution can be found stupid enough to house the sufferer). Beware.

The next question you should ask as what box to start with.

By the way. I know a number of players with arthritic inflictions (including myself) and we all seem to manage OK. We just moan about it.

[Mike Mccarthy]

As you might gather, this can be quite an emotive subject 

As Lester says, the DG box is ideally suited to English playing and is, by far, the most common in South Devon in the circles I move in: Mostly morris but an awful lot of morris musicians are involved in other stuff. I think North Devon is probably much the same.

Having said that, there is a common condition common amongst these people, known as MAD (Melodeon Acquisition Disorder) which can lead to marital breakdown and institutionalisation (where an institution can be found stupid enough to house the sufferer). Beware.

The next question you should ask as what box to start with.

By the way. I know a number of players with arthritic inflictions (including myself) and we all seem to manage OK. We just moan about it.

well, before I started this subject, I just thought I'd get a D/G box but now I'm not so sure. I think I will still go for a starter D/G as I know that pretty much all the tunes I have are in keys that can be played on one. When I get to the point that I think I want to upgrade, I will have to consider other options.

[Thrupenny Bit]

As Lester says, DG's were specifically made after a tune collector in the '50's went around the North of the country and collected tunes in these keys. If you do a search for a thread from 'inventor' he has chapter and verse on it, after giving us the definitive version a couple of years back.

Greg's right. Never bumped into anything other than DG in Devon, or any other English festival I've played in sessions at across the country, though seeing as I've not played in anything other than 'English' sessions I'm not really likely to.....

and Greg, keep meaning to ask, where are you based?
Q
also in Devon!

[Thrupenny Bit]

Mike, be aware there are differences.
The '4th apart' boxes as Lester mentions, DG, CF, GC, AD and BbEb all function in the same way.
If you play a tune on one, say DG, then follow exactly the same finger pattern ( push/ pulls and button sequence ) on any of the others in the list, the tune will come out the same but in another key.
As I understand it, the semitone boxes do not function in the same way, so if you learn things on a DG, you couldn't immediately transfer the finger patterns to a BC, C#D etc.
Just so's you knows!
Q

[Stiamh]

The BC whilst being technicaly  chromatic  is fine for keys FBCGDAE  but not that easy in the flat keys to which the C#D is better suited.

George: did you mean "to which the C/C# is better suited"? Through my own experimentation I have found that key signatures with one or two flats, and those with no accidentals at all (C major, D dorian), are considerably easier on B/C than C#/D.

Lester: are you sure about the fact that at the time the D/G was introduced, no semitone boxes were "in the equation"? What about all those C/C# and even D/D# boxes that are lying around in England and come up for sale regularly? Weren't C/C# boxes played by Suffolk musicians, or am I mis-remembering?

[george garside]

I agree go for a DG particularly as the people you play with use those two keys a lot.  A  can be played when you  become more experienced

george

[Mike Mccarthy]

Mike, be aware there are differences.
The '4th apart' boxes as Lester mentions, DG, CF, GC, AD and BbEb all function in the same way.
If you play a tune on one, say DG, then follow exactly the same finger pattern ( push/ pulls and button sequence ) on any of the others in the list, the tune will come out the same but in another key.
As I understand it, the semitone boxes do not function in the same way, so if you learn things on a DG, you couldn't immediately transfer the finger patterns to a BC, C#D etc.
Just so's you knows!
Q

duly noted. Being a guitarist I am kinda aware of "shapes" but since learning some fiddle and learning to read music/use my ears I am trying to get away from the shape thing and instead just playing the, hopefully, correct note.

[Steve_freereeder]

...What about all those C/C# and even D/D# boxes that are lying around in England and come up for sale regularly? Weren't C/C# boxes played by Suffolk musicians, or am I mis-remembering?

The East Anglian musicians tended just to play in the key of C on the right hand and using a good solid left hand oompah bass. They pretty much ignored the C# row. No point in having it for the sort of music they played, which is also why the one-row 4-stop in C was also so popular in that part of the world.

They didn't need any fancy fluid chromatic stuff when playing for local village dances; just honest-to-goodness lumpy English polkas, jigs, waltzes and hornpipes with a stonking left-hand accompaniment.

[Thrupenny Bit]

play and teach up there ^^ has the classic answer when it comes to keys ' what type of music do you want to play?'
Take a listen on YouTube, Lester's page P&T's pages and get a feel for different things.
The 'English' style has a regular accompaniment, hence the 'lumpy' description. From my limited knowledge of Irish traditional music, they tend to need chromatic boxes to fly around the keyboard but limit the left hand accompaniment.
Take a listen and see what grabs your fancy. That will lead you into the 'which key' question.
Q

[911377brian]

"....honest to goodness lumpy English polkas etc with a stonking left hand accompaniment.." Thanks Steve, perfect defence when Mrs Brian has a dig about the six 114's "taking up all the book shelf"

[Rob2Hook]

Would she rather you lived in a fantasy world with your nose in a book?  Rather like the fantasy world where I can actually play the guitar I just bought...  Best keep the headphones on!

Rob.

[Rob2Hook]

Sorry, previous post just being flippant.  I notice you mention buying a "starter box" - also be aware that some are so dire that it is more likely to finish you.  I was lucky that someone lent me a quite nice Hohner Eica whilst I learnt the basics of how a D/G is played.  Also fortunate that a couple of friends with dissimilar (English) styles - one Scots influenced, the other French/Cajun -supported my efforts and offered critiques and beer in equal portions.  This followed my party-piece headstand and all the money falling from my pockets.

A well-fettled Hohner will offer far better action, greater dynamic range and speak evenly whereas a cheaper box will impede your progress.  Take any opportunity to try other people's boxes once you know your way round the instrument.  You don't have to be good to notice the differences they offer and they may prove you to be better than you thought!  If you are planning on playing for English style dancing then only a quint tuned box cuts it - greater chromatic capability has to be provided by a third or partial third row.  The chromatic capability of a semitone box is great for the more melodic style of ITM, etc. but often means the limited basses are useless in the key you're in.

If you have trusted, experienced friends to assist and guide you, then buying second-hand can be a good way to get a better quality "starter box", particularly if you are willing to accept less than perfect cosmetics.  I thing one of the most consistent performers is the Dino Baffetti "Black Pearl II" - quick action with loud respponsive reeds. Strangely one of the worst (purely in my opinion) is the Saltarelle Boube - made by Baffetti, I have one and it's a dog.  I'm sure a fettler could make vast improvements to it, but it should never have left the factory as it is.

Rob.