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Author Topic: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends  (Read 4589 times)

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Gena Crisman

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Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« on: June 20, 2017, 11:30:47 PM »

Hi,

I'm a fairly new player (started last September) and have been playing what is apparently a good example of a Scarlatti Nero, and I've been thinking about what I might like in a box if/when I upgrade. Having gone around 'local' stores and chatted with other local players and, when the opportunity's presented itself, trying their boxes, there's one in particular that I've been allowed to have a go on that's stuck out;

A local player has a Dino Baffetti Black Pearl II, and it's bass end had a pleasing I guess 'similarity' between the Fundamental and Chord buttons? Sort of rasping I suppose but almost maybe like they shared reeds or they were tuned to an inversion where they ended up closer together pitch wise maybe? I'm not quite sure how to describe it or what would be the reason for it, and I haven't had the opportunity to have another go on either the box in question or another example of one yet. I'm also not sure why I haven't found it on any of the other boxes I've tried (mostly hobgoblin stock though). I've looked around quite a bit online, here on melnet and youtube etc, trying to find recordings or demonstrations of BPII/IIIs or the similar Carnivals, with just the chord and then fun buttons being played to see if I can work it out, but so far I haven't had much luck. I don't suppose anyone might know or can point me in the right direction with what I'm trying to find the words for, or if there's anything unusual/particular about the BPII's bass end setup that might explain my experience with it?

I'm quite interested in upgrading to a 3 voice LMM box some day, and I'd quite like it if the bass end behaved the same way as his does. I think maybe my attraction to the way the bass end sounded is similar to my attraction to LMM?

I'm not sure if it'd be relevant, but, I believe his BPII was bought at least 2nd hand so may have had some work done to it in the past. For age, it doesn't possess a 3rds stop but does have the front facing circular grill holes. He hasn't personally had any work done on it and doesn't know as to why the bass end sounds as it does.
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Anahata

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Re: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2017, 08:08:34 AM »

A BPII was nearly the box I bought until I discovered Oakwood, and I did like the bass sound.

If you like the sound of it, do you have to know why?
Another box might have the same reed pitches but sound quite different, so a technical analysis isn't going to help you much. As ever, you need to try any box before buying it.
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Alyson

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Re: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2017, 11:00:05 AM »

Hi,

I'm a fairly new player (started last September) and have been playing what is apparently a good example of a Scarlatti Nero, and I've been thinking about what I might like in a box if/when I upgrade. Having gone around 'local' stores and chatted with other local players and, when the opportunity's presented itself, trying their boxes, there's one in particular that I've been allowed to have a go on that's stuck out;

A local player has a Dino Baffetti Black Pearl II, and it's bass end had a pleasing I guess 'similarity' between the Fundamental and Chord buttons? Sort of rasping I suppose but almost maybe like they shared reeds or they were tuned to an inversion where they ended up closer together pitch wise maybe? I'm not quite sure how to describe it or what would be the reason for it, and I haven't had the opportunity to have another go on either the box in question or another example of one yet. I'm also not sure why I haven't found it on any of the other boxes I've tried (mostly hobgoblin stock though). I've looked around quite a bit online, here on melnet and youtube etc, trying to find recordings or demonstrations of BPII/IIIs or the similar Carnivals, with just the chord and then fun buttons being played to see if I can work it out, but so far I haven't had much luck. I don't suppose anyone might know or can point me in the right direction with what I'm trying to find the words for, or if there's anything unusual/particular about the BPII's bass end setup that might explain my experience with it?

I'm quite interested in upgrading to a 3 voice LMM box some day, and I'd quite like it if the bass end behaved the same way as his does. I think maybe my attraction to the way the bass end sounded is similar to my attraction to LMM?

I'm not sure if it'd be relevant, but, I believe his BPII was bought at least 2nd hand so may have had some work done to it in the past. For age, it doesn't possess a 3rds stop but does have the front facing circular grill holes. He hasn't personally had any work done on it and doesn't know as to why the bass end sounds as it does.

Check this site out www.squeezeboxes.co.uk
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2017, 02:58:43 PM »

A BPII was nearly the box I bought until I discovered Oakwood, and I did like the bass sound.

If you like the sound of it, do you have to know why?
Another box might have the same reed pitches but sound quite different, so a technical analysis isn't going to help you much. As ever, you need to try any box before buying it.

Well, one of my main goals is to find an instrument to fall for & covet for a while longer as I save up a bit more, so, I guess in a way I'm trying to work out if there's anything clearly different about them vs the many melodeons I've played, so that I could then search for any other makes & instruments with a similar setup, or, know if it's something more unique to each example, and either way hopefully end up with the right instrument for me. Maybe there's something out there I'd like even more, but, I know I liked this and I was hoping to find out more about it, since other people probably like it as well.

If there were something functionally different, it'd be handy to have the right vocabulary to describe it, too, as I know sometimes older instruments have different features/setups to newer versions and I might be able to correctly ask before travelling to see one. Plus, there's learning how to recognise it when hearing other people play, either in real life or in recordings, since the first time I've noticed it was when I played one myself - that way maybe I can try and also understand the upsides & downsides of it or if people other than myself would even notice it.

I realised I completely neglected to mention that this is all for DG boxes & I currently play for morris, but I assume if it's a feature of the model, then the other setups would probably have it.

Also, thanks Alyson, I actually tripped over the www.squeezeboxes.co.uk website in my searching around melnet - it does appear to be one of the few/only UK dealer/s offering new Dino Baffettis at the moment, as well as the Bincis and Supers, but being they're in Leeds apparently I can't so easily pop in for a visit, and I'm already struggling to write down what to ask about to figure out what I might have experienced with my friend's instrument, so I'm a bit irked by the idea of emailing them directly.

I live in Poole (and play for Anonymous Morris) in Dorset - I think my biggest opportunity to try instruments locally is going to be at Sidmouth Folk Festival? I'm hoping to have a better idea of what I'm looking for by then. I'm also hoping to meet up with the owner of the box that I tried again at a local event this Saturday, and have another go on it then - will try to get a recording of it.
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Alyson

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Re: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2017, 03:12:17 PM »

A BPII was nearly the box I bought until I discovered Oakwood, and I did like the bass sound.

If you like the sound of it, do you have to know why?
Another box might have the same reed pitches but sound quite different, so a technical analysis isn't going to help you much. As ever, you need to try any box before buying it.

Well, one of my main goals is to find an instrument to fall for & covet for a while longer as I save up a bit more, so, I guess in a way I'm trying to work out if there's anything clearly different about them vs the many melodeons I've played, so that I could then search for any other makes & instruments with a similar setup, or, know if it's something more unique to each example, and either way hopefully end up with the right instrument for me. Maybe there's something out there I'd like even more, but, I know I liked this and I was hoping to find out more about it, since other people probably like it as well.

If there were something functionally different, it'd be handy to have the right vocabulary to describe it, too, as I know sometimes older instruments have different features/setups to newer versions and I might be able to correctly ask before travelling to see one. Plus, there's learning how to recognise it when hearing other people play, either in real life or in recordings, since the first time I've noticed it was when I played one myself - that way maybe I can try and also understand the upsides & downsides of it or if people other than myself would even notice it.

I realised I completely neglected to mention that this is all for DG boxes & I currently play for morris, but I assume if it's a feature of the model, then the other setups would probably have it.

Also, thanks Alyson, I actually tripped over the www.squeezeboxes.co.uk website in my searching around melnet - it does appear to be one of the few/only UK dealer/s offering new Dino Baffettis at the moment, as well as the Bincis and Supers, but being they're in Leeds apparently I can't so easily pop in for a visit, and I'm already struggling to write down what to ask about to figure out what I might have experienced with my friend's instrument, so I'm a bit irked by the idea of emailing them directly.

I live in Poole (and play for Anonymous Morris) in Dorset - I think my biggest opportunity to try instruments locally is going to be at Sidmouth Folk Festival? I'm hoping to have a better idea of what I'm looking for by then. I'm also hoping to meet up with the owner of the box that I tried again at a local event this Saturday, and have another go on it then - will try to get a recording of it.

Please email them you will get me!
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Theo

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Re: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2017, 03:17:04 PM »

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JD

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Re: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2017, 11:15:04 AM »

I doubt if I can help with finding language to describe the quality of sound but I have played a BPIII for twenty years for Morris of various sorts. My usual partner-in-melodeon-crime plays a BPII. Either of these would be a sensible step up from the Nero.

The BPII is light and can be very loud if needed. The balance between bass and treble is excellent. This is something that I don't think you can easily judge when playing, you have to listen to the box from a distance. The BPIII is a different animal. It is much heavier than the BPII. The bass has a combination of block-mounted and flat-mounted reeds that I think provide a good balance when playing LMM but are a bit heavy when playing MM.

These Dino Baffetti boxes are excellent value for money and tough. Mine has been played in freezing temperatures, 30degC (last night!) and in pouring rain (I know I shouldn't). It just keeps working. My only complaint would be that the air valve could be bigger.

You say you are looking for "an instrument to fall for". I think this is the right attitude when looking for a new box. I have bought two "better" boxes to replace the BPIII and sold them both on. We just didn't bond. More nebulous use of language!
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Re: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2017, 11:48:56 AM »


I live in Poole (and play for Anonymous Morris) in Dorset - I think my biggest opportunity to try instruments locally is going to be at Sidmouth Folk Festival? I'm hoping to have a better idea of what I'm looking for by then. I'm also hoping to meet up with the owner of the box that I tried again at a local event this Saturday, and have another go on it then - will try to get a recording of it.

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Gena Crisman

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Re: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2017, 10:33:58 PM »

Hello, a little update for you all & future people who search for this sort of thing; I have been very kindly lent a Black Pearl II by an acquaintance for me to try for a while and see if it'd be a suitable box for me. It's helped me work out a bit better what my experience was about. It also turns out that Malcolm is an old friend of the side I play for, and is also a lovely guy.

My vague understanding from having the opportunity to play a BPII for longer is that there is nothing particular with it's bass end in terms of reed configuration, sharing or pitch etc. However, they do seem to have a very strong bark/rasp/whatever you'd like to call it to their Bass reeds, and you can really feel that vibration through your bass hand. In fact, when being played very hard, it may be a little detrimental to their sound as the barking can't quite seem to keep up and sounds a little off sometimes. But up until that point, it's been a fantastic, powerful box for morris (comments may have been made by the band).

I made myself a short youtube video to try and make sure I can keep track of the differences between the BPII I'm borrowing and my regular Nero, plus to see if I can hear the difference side by side as an observer, and, you can sort of hear the barks coming out of the BPII (on the Em bass especially, almost in a bad way). I wouldn't normally link that but, again, it's something I would have liked to see/listen to when I was searching for information before, so, what the hey, there's a link.

I'm still planning on going to Sidmouth, as I'm quite keen to test drive a BPIII, which should be present given a brief conversation with Alyson, plus possibly some of their binci reeded cousins, as well as probably literally everything else that'll be there.

I've also had recent opportunity to play (what may have been) a Salterelle Berry, a Serenellini Lady & a 233 Deluxe, as well as an Excelsior Bilbo (among a few others). Nothing else has so far seemed to have that same bass end bark, but can report that Serenellini apparently do know how to make their bellows out of magic.
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2017, 11:35:22 AM »

Comparing boxes is an area where our preferences and personal bias can become contentious so my comments may be offensive to some!  It largely depends on the particular sound you want, so a box best suited to a "Continental" or "French cafe" sort of sound will not be nearly as well suited to morris's livelier and "lumpy" sort of sound.  I admire Dino Baffetti's small boxes - nothing is perfect in this world, but they have better response and dynamic range than any other production box I can think of.  They are light and loud too, so suit a morris musician's requirements, playing outdoors often against a hubbub of background noise.  Taking the BPII as the most common example (and the one of which I have most experience), they are typically tuned to a nice swing tremolo giving it a breadth of tone when played at normal volume.  If pushed hard, I believe the reeds "frequency lock" eliminating the tremolo and producing a sweet, piercing , singing tone (though it can make your ears bleed!).  That's also the point at which you find one limiting feature, as that excessive pressure of air can make the bass reeds choke (fail to sound).  Of course you could get the bass reeds set for such conditions, but then they would be unresponsive at normal playing pressures.  Most players don't venture into such abuse of their instruments.

I have tried a friend's BPIII - he actually bought it because he liked the LMM sound of the box I was playing at the time (Castagnari Trilly).  I shouldn't rate a type on playing one example, but I thought it was good.  It didn't quite have the liveliness of the BPII - probably because of the weight of the extra reeds and the larger cross-section bellows - but it was a marginal difference.  The two-voice sound was not quite as crisp and aggressive as the BPII, but that seems to apply to any multi-voice box with the extra reed banks shut off, again marginal and a reasonable price to pay for getting the versatility of the LMM sound.  It wasn't possible to overblow it nearly so much.

Just a comment, Saltarelle isn't really a manufacturer.  Their range seems to comprise some models designed for them and some reincarnated designs.  One example of the latter which you mentioned is the Berry.  This was a Dino Baffetti model that was discontinued.  One of my first boxes was the original DB version in 3-voice, nice to play, not quite as raucous as the BP and a bit on the heavy side.  I believe a large number of the Saltarelle models are, or have been, made by DB.

I believe the current DB designs' characteristics gave rise to their working with Oakwood to produce the Binci and other models when Oakwood themselves ceased box production.  These variants have all the benefits of the Baffettis plus improved dynamic range, response and choice of tone depending on the exact model chosen.  I was lucky enough to get a DB Binci second hand on which Steve Freereeder had just done a superb reed overhaul and it is my current "playing out" box.  It is definitely louder than the BPII, will really sing when pushed hard and the basses still choke if I overdo it!  I really should accept that there is a limit to how much volume a box can produce...

Incidentally, some years ago when the Nero first appeared, Squeezy thrust one into my hands on the festival stall saying something like "Amazing, considering what carp their other models are..."  True.  A good starter box, it has that alive feeling that many cheap models lack.

Rob.
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Re: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2017, 01:07:35 PM »

.... I was lucky enough to get a DB Binci second hand on which Steve Freereeder had just done a superb reed overhaul and it is my current "playing out" box.  It is definitely louder than the BPII, will really sing when pushed hard and the basses still choke if I overdo it!  I really should accept that there is a limit to how much volume a box can produce....
I'm pleased that you liked the work I did. It's nice to have the feedback, thank you. (:)
However, I will say that in the Binci reeds, I had high-quality starting material to work with. There's the saying about not making silk purses from a sow's ear, and the corollary is that there is nothing remotely pig-like about Binci reeds. 
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Rog

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Re: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2017, 02:23:58 PM »

The Dino Carnival is a bit lighter (I think) than the BP (I owned a Carnival and have done maintenance on both). I think also you can get Dino with Binci reeds...which looks v much like a Carnival. Personal preference is the Carnival design...with wood finish rather than the gothic celluloid of the BP. You can in fact buy Dinos ..with standard or Binci reeds again at squeezeboxes.co.uk...which is the reincarnated Cleckeaton box shop.

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Re: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2017, 11:34:03 PM »

Incidentally, some years ago when the Nero first appeared, Squeezy thrust one into my hands on the festival stall saying something like "Amazing, considering what carp their other models are..."  True.  A good starter box, it has that alive feeling that many cheap models lack.
I'll take that as side-stepping the profanity filter and not a pescatorial allusion  >:E
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Re: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2017, 06:57:25 AM »

Incidentally, some years ago when the Nero first appeared, Squeezy thrust one into my hands on the festival stall saying something like "Amazing, considering what carp their other models are..."  True.  A good starter box, it has that alive feeling that many cheap models lack.
I'll take that as side-stepping the profanity filter and not a pescatorial allusion  >:E

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Re: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2017, 07:31:57 AM »

Nero is a Scarlatti (Chinese) model.  I don't think DB ever used that name.
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2017, 03:11:51 PM »

Nero is a Scarlatti (Chinese) model.  I don't think DB ever used that name.

Quite right - I'm not sure where the confusion is suspected, but, I think it's being talked about because I've noted that I have a Scarlatti Nero as my starter box, and it's really the only landmark I have to compare against.

For reference, I still enjoy playing my Scarlatti Nero, it's quite good! I've tried a few other examples in stores that have seemed to have obvious problems with some of the buttons though. The main reasons I'm finding to upgrade (from a playing perspective anyway); playing more complicated tunes involving moving in and out of the higher octaves, the Nero's high reeds are just less responsive than the lower octaves. Additionally, faster bellows reversals are far more challenging on it versus a better instrument, as just moving the Nero's bass end around is just... heavier? The DB Black Pearl II I'm borrowing has really improved my performance in tunes that involve running up and down the notes at the octave change over. The Serenellini boxes I tried recently were better still though, and I'm much more able to appreciate the differences as a more seasoned player than when I was first starting out.


Thanks Rob, I really enjoyed reading your experiences, especially since you've found some of the same things I have, so I know I haven't completely gone off of the deep end (yet, at least).

Like your friend, there is kind of an LMM sound that I'm chasing too, but I'm actually not sure where I heard it. A lot of the 3 voice boxes I've tried haven't really had it - neither the Serenellini Lady or the 233 Deluxe seemed to have it (both new at Hobgoblin), but, I suspect it might just be either how the two M reeds are tuned, or player vs observer experience kind of thing, so I have to do a bit more research in that department too since otherwise those boxes played like a dream. One of the Hobgoblin staff seemed to get a different sound out of the Lady than I could too, so, player could be a big factor.
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Re: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2017, 04:08:31 PM »

If you like the Baffettis mentioned above you'll probably like the "Oakwood" Baffetti Bincis more -- probably the best box ever made for morris (at last count we had 7 in Smiffs...), loud and crisp with an excellent bass end which doesn't choke when played hard, and seem indestructible even if you play them in the rain or kick them along a tarmac road...

Since the Music Room closed they're now being supplied by squeezeboxes.co.uk , I'd really suggest trying to get a go on one before buying a Black Pearl.

Oh yes, nearlyforgot, of course they sound best in Dedic tuning (2Hz sharp/2Hz flat) ;-)
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Re: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2017, 01:08:43 AM »

If you like the Baffettis mentioned above you'll probably like the "Oakwood" Baffetti Bincis more.

Oh yes, nearlyforgot, of course they sound best in Dedic tuning (2Hz sharp/2Hz flat) ;-)

I'm thinking I probably will like them, but, much like the Serenelinnis I tried, the cost of a new one (especially in 3 voice) is a little bit of a lofty goal for me right now. Although not impossible, it's one of those things where I'm worried that I probably don't know enough about what I want to be looking at spending so much, having been playing less than a year and all. I haven't had the opportunity to try one to date (roll on sidmouth) - although I have seen a good number around at recent festivals, I'm usually kept too busy to fraternise very much and the opportunity passes.

So, I'm vaguely familiar enough with Dedic tuning to recognise your username, and functionally I think it makes the most sense, especially on a 3 voice box without individual stops for the MM reeds. But, no one I know so far has anything tuned like that (well, they haven't mentioned in) so I don't really know how it sounds, especially when playing with other instruments. I'm struggling to find good resources online, especially for the effect it'd have on LMM; my plan at current is to repeat the process being performed here and create a simulated 3 voice in L M M, L M M+ vs L M- M+, so I can maybe work out better if I'm just not getting the sound I'm looking for due to a tuning issue or just the character of box.

I guess in a way the intent of this thread has become 'so are there any other sorts of boxes that have the same bass character?' - the answer so far appears to be not really, no, but check out the whole range of DBs from Carnivals up to the Oakwood Bincis and Supers.
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Re: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2017, 08:43:26 AM »

These last two posts have raised a question for me. My BPIII will be going for a tune up later this year. It has been played for twenty years without one so it's about time (I can almost hear the resident fettlers tutting). As far as I am aware it is tuned LMM+. How different would it sound if it were to be retuned as LM-M+ ? The box is swing tuned.

I have played it with several fiddle players over the years. Nobody has complained but I don't think any of us has perfect pitch.



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Re: Dino Baffetti BP II/III Bass ends
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2017, 09:00:51 AM »

These last two posts have raised a question for me. My BPIII will be going for a tune up later this year. It has been played for twenty years without one so it's about time (I can almost hear the resident fettlers tutting). As far as I am aware it is tuned LMM+. How different would it sound if it were to be retuned as LM-M+ ? The box is swing tuned.

I have played it with several fiddle players over the years. Nobody has complained but I don't think any of us has perfect pitch.

If done properly, Dedic tuning on a BPIII to L M- M+ will work fine and you should get a good rich in-tune sound with all three voices sounding, and also M- M+ will sound good too. If the basses and chords are tuned to 0 cents offset, the treble and bass ends should sound nice together.

The problems come when you have a LMM box where the M reeds are are individually controlled by their own stops, e.g. a Saltarelle Nuage or Serenellini 233. Dedic tuning would work fine so long as M- M+ or L M- M+ reeds are selected, but pairing L M- or L M+ will sound horribly out of tune. With these instruments it's best to tune them LMM+. That way you can have a nice sounding LM 'bandoneon' setting when needed.

Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk
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