Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Acceptable?  (Read 8986 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

911377brian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1518
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2017, 12:19:00 PM »

I'm having a boring morning so I knocked the ends off some of my boxes that have been fettled by Microbot, Lester Rees and Theo. Surprise! Immaculate work by all three. I'm sure they would all recognise there own work but I couldn't, it was just uniformally good.
Logged

911377brian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1518
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2017, 12:23:41 PM »

Should read "All FOUR.... of course... :|bl
Logged

folkloristmark

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 546
    • street entertainers
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2017, 12:25:54 PM »

I have had personal melodeons with this mod from very respectable fettlers. More than one, on the bass reeds usually in small reed instruments, were I assume no easy alternatives were available. I have never questioned it,I trust their judgement and have never had an issue. I think you could make too much off this as an issue and it probably less common now. I agree tape might need replacing but so does wax and reeds. I think I like to understand the inside as well as the outside of my instruments and it is fair to highlight it but it is used as is solder etc.I think I would find it acceptable if done by trusted fettlers so dont panic if you are driven to open your machine.May be sometimes if it sounds right its better not to look.If it dont you are either confident with the repair or will go to your repair man.

OOPs can you confirm Theo its not one of mine. I do not convert to Gd myself.I have used the above including yourself as I am playing yours now. I have sold two on in the past so if no names are rightly used then do confirm its not come via my collection Ta.LOL
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 12:33:14 PM by folkloristmark »
Logged
Mark Taylor
Folkloristmark

Garry Probert

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 296
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2017, 02:21:28 PM »

Quote
I wonder if repairers should get together and try to set some quality standards?  The person who does this sells "restored" boxes for top prices

Wholeheartedly agree having had wonderful vintage guitars and banjos in the workshop bodged beyond repair..........Heartbreaking!!!
I know its not acceptable nowadays to name and shame ,but would it be ok to create on the forum a list of competent reputable fettlers we could use with confidence ,instead of sending something to an incompetent bodger and then have to have the bodgers work corrected ,and then have it done properly.       
Logged

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13729
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2017, 02:26:33 PM »

Quote
I wonder if repairers should get together and try to set some quality standards?  The person who does this sells "restored" boxes for top prices

Wholeheartedly agree having had wonderful vintage guitars and banjos in the workshop bodged beyond repair..........Heartbreaking!!!
I know its not acceptable nowadays to name and shame ,but would it be ok to create on the forum a list of competent reputable fettlers we could use with confidence ,instead of sending something to an incompetent bodger and then have to have the bodgers work corrected ,and then have it done properly.     

That would be ideal, but who would run the list and how would you accredit the people on it?  Not saying it is impossible but it would take some organising.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Clive Williams

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3557
    • Home Page
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2017, 02:35:41 PM »

Nah, it's impossible :-) Certainly with manky UK libel laws. Of course some fettlers of this parish have very nice websites where they show off their work, and in some cases, stage by stage breakdowns of work carried out so you can get a great idea of the effort and skill that goes into it...

Malcolm Clapp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1095
  • Loving my Hohner-reeded wet MMM CastaTommy
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2017, 02:40:12 PM »

Hmmm
Logged
Tuner/repairer, now retired, but still playing! Happy to offer advice on repairs etc., and might be persuaded to undertake the odd emergency job for local and longtime  customers. Selling a few melodeons from my collection currently....

Garry Probert

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 296
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2017, 03:03:35 PM »

Hi theo this subject has come up a few times in darrens little group,it might take a little organizing as you say but I personally think people would be more likely to sent off their beloved instruments if they had confidence in the competency and integrity of the fettler .One bad job has a very discouraging effect and probably leads to illadvised amature tinkering.
Example :I only used old pa reeds to practice on but if there is a cut and taper fettler out there how much worse could i do?

Perhaps just a simple fettler review section it's not contravening anything to congratulate on service provided,only to leave disparaging comments. omission of the dodgy would be enough

Had my box fettled by theo "awesome many thanks" sound a bit like facebook likes lol but the feckless and foolish are unlikely to get positive comments unless posted by themselves.
I,m almost !!!!!!!! (too many permutations lol) at my finished layout ,so the box will be shipped off for tuning valves setup
I could post pictures of the internals the action etc people love pictures on this forum might become an interesting section and good for business for the skilled that never mind their work critiqued
might also rid us of the cowboys lol           
Logged

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6359
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2017, 04:22:43 PM »

would it be ok to create on the forum a list of competent reputable fettlers we could use with confidence

If you read Melnet for long enough you can work out who the good ones are. I have, anyway.
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh band: www.barleycoteband.co.uk

Garry Probert

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 296
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2017, 04:51:30 PM »

Quote
If you read Melnet for long enough you can work out who the good ones are. I have, anyway.
Hi i,m a relatively new member with a box that will need fettling,and trawling through posts hoping to glean info is difficult enough
Quote
This business of clipping the reeds and filling in with masking tape is in a different league of ban practice.
I wonder if repairers should get together and try to set some quality standards?  The person who does this sells "restored" boxes for top prices.
the fettler appears to be a top price restorer so its even harder to separate saint from sinner. especially if the person sells on this forum or advertises services on the forum
 
 
Logged

John MacKenzie (Cugiok)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2360
  • Fettling... Learning to reed and right.
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2017, 05:03:02 PM »

Well it helps that people who fettle declare that to be so. It would also help if all people who are dealers, state that they are such. Poor little souls like myself, are sometimes taken in.

Sir John
Logged
There is no beginning to my talent :)



: Hohner Club Modell 1. Bb/Eb, de-clubbed : Early Hohner Pressed Wood A/D : 1930's Varnished wood G/C:  Hohner Erika C/F: Bandoneon tuned D/G Pressed wood: Koch F/Bb; G/C Pre Corso

Lester

  • MADman
  • Mods and volunteers
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9109
  • Hohners'R'me
    • Lester's Melodeon Emporium and Tune-a-Rama
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2017, 05:04:18 PM »

Well it helps that people who fettle declare that to be so. It would also help if all people who are dealers, state that they are such. Poor little souls like myself, are sometimes taken in.

Sir John

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/page,shops_repairers.html

Garry Probert

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 296
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2017, 09:55:24 PM »

I,m new to melodeons but have been a guitar/banjo uke builder and restorer for many years now retired,and even with my limited knowledge ..........trimming and taping the reeds is quite frankly a joke,and with all the posts on this forum about incompetent amateurs destroying reeds with poor technique, it show just how important it is to have confidence in the person working on ones box
Quote
Well it helps that people who fettle declare that to be so. It would also help if all people who are dealers, state that they are such. Poor little souls like myself, are sometimes taken in.

Sir John

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/page,shops_repairers.html

Is the cut and tape chap on this list ?   
Logged

playandteach

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3521
  • Currently a music teacher in a high school.
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2017, 10:27:12 PM »

Now there's a can of worms.
Logged
Serafini R2D2 GC, Serafini GC accs 18 bass

TomBom

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 471
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2017, 11:33:54 PM »

Quote
If you read Melnet for long enough you can work out who the good ones are. I have, anyway.
Hi i,m a relatively new member with a box that will need fettling,and trawling through posts hoping to glean info is difficult enough
Quote
This business of clipping the reeds and filling in with masking tape is in a different league of ban practice.
I wonder if repairers should get together and try to set some quality standards?  The person who does this sells "restored" boxes for top prices.
the fettler appears to be a top price restorer so its even harder to separate saint from sinner. especially if the person sells on this forum or advertises services on the forum
 
Did you notice the OP repairs boxes? In addition you could find out three more repairers, I think. They posted replies in this thread.
Logged

Garry Probert

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 296
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2017, 12:58:29 AM »

Hi this kind of thread is very helpful to newcomers to the melodeon,nothing more discouraging than a poorly setup and badly maintained instrument and many people will assume sending a melodeon to someone advertising themselves as a credible fettler or buying one they will get a professional service,

It also brings into question purchasing a vintage melodeon from somewhere like ebay where they say tuned and set up by "Mr ************"
and I have seen numerous adverts for melodeons where the fettler is held up as a sort of guarantee of quality and it would be nice to buy with that security.

My wheatstone duet concertina was set up beautifully by a wonderful chap that has an excellent reputation and if i were still playing i would not hesitate in purchasing an instrument that he had worked on.

Now I will think very carefully about purchasing a melodeon where the restorers name is purported to be a sort of guarantee of quality workmanship ,funny as I have usually tried to avoid the keen amature based on my assumption they might cock it up lol   
Quote
Did you notice the OP repairs boxes?
yes I did and I have his address.
   

       
Logged

Julian S

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1546
  • D/G Pastourelle 2, Dony, Pokerwork, G/C Pariselle
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2017, 09:25:18 AM »

Truth is, retuning an odd reed and doing minor repairs is one thing - and clearly a complete refurbishment and retune needs so much more skill. I used to retune the odd reeds on the Pokerworks, but no way would I touch the reeds of my Castagnari - I have a realistic view of my skill level ! I'll leave that to the experts...Trouble is, some people don't know their limitations - and maybe aren't prepared to learn how to do things properly.
Reporting good service on line is one thing, but highlighting bad is certainly fraught with problems and not easy to do. Hopefully the perpetrator of this bodge job (if active as a commercial repairer) now appreciates the error of his/her ways...
Logged
Old Bones Dance Band

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6359
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2017, 12:00:08 PM »

I think describing the wrong (or right) techniques for doing things without mentioning names is extremely helpful without being contentious.
For example I've seen tuning being done with a dremel rotary file, and knowing no better, assumed that was the way it was normally done, until I read several postings here making it clear that it's not a good way to tune reeds and explaining how to make and use a good scraper.

(would-be) Fettlers and customers all benefit from the dissemination of this kind of information.

It can led to to some heated discussion, of course, such as the "mitred joints" episode we had a couple of years ago, but again as long as it's focused on what works or doesn't and why, and not about personalities, I can't see any harm done.
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh band: www.barleycoteband.co.uk

Microbot

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 316
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2017, 02:07:40 AM »

Hi Theo and all

there seems to be some interest/doubt/concern over who was the supposed ‘butcher’ who carried out the reed-work which is the subject of this thread.

I have no problem stating that it was me. I have been waiting to see the responses before replying in person.

First, I’ll summarise the rationale behind the unconventional reedwork discussed in this thread...

I actually ‘discovered’ this technique in an instrument I bought from France many years ago. After playing the box for several weeks, I converted the instrument to another key…. In doing so I noticed a reed with a shortened tongue and sealed gap. Instinctively I replaced the reed, though I was conscious of the fact that I’d noticed nothing amiss when initially playing the box. It took me ages to develop the confidence to explore the idea of shortening the reed tongue to raise the pitch of a reed … but that was the origin.

Of course, this method of working on a reed is not the ideal. The ideal is to have a back-to-back reed-plate that provides exactly the notes you require. But when converting vintage instruments using original reeds – especially when personalised layouts are involved - this is not always possible. Quite simply, the reedplates are not always available.

One then has a range of options  ….

Option 1 ….tune up in the conventional way by reducing the thickness of metal at the top 1/3 of the tongue... downside – however careful you are & however carefully you ‘spread the work’, the top 1/3 can become too thin, the tone edgy and the pitch unstable… maximum of a semitone (except on larger reeds) and on the smallest reeds even that semi-tone shift can compromise the tongue.

Option 2 … choose a reed of a higher pitch, and tune down with solder … downside – with some (especially smaller) reeds, the resultant weighted tip can produce a deadened tone and slightly unresponsive reed.

Option 3 … braze/solder a small amount of material towards the root of the reed – effectively adding metal to the bottom 1/3 of the reed to raise the pitch… downside – the added material is not tempered steel; the tone can be deadened and the angle/set of the reed can prove unstable, altering and adopting slightly different positions after being played.

Option 4 … to substitute a modern reed of the exact pitch(es) required … downside – the tone, volume and response of that reed will differ from the other vintage reeds in the instrument. (Theo also claims that vintage mini Piano Accordion reeds are readily available for work on Liliputs… in fact these Piano Accordion reeds possess different dynamic properties from diatonic reeds and are not necessarily suitable replacements – not to mention the fact that they are unisonoric)

Option 5 … To remove metal from the tip of the reed-tongue by shortening the length, to create a tongue that is the perfect pitch, and which has not been unduly ‘thinned’ …. It is not just a matter of shortening the length of the tongue to raise the pitch, one must also create an efficient profile. This then results in a reed-tongue which - provided the work is done carefully - produces a strong tone, stable pitch and quick response -  to all intents and purposes it is the equivalent of a reed manufactured to that pitch. That is the goal. …. downside – a gap usually between 0.5 & 2.0 mm is created, which must be closed. Masking tape is ideal for this – this tape can be regarded as a ‘renewable’, no more difficult to replace than a plastic or leather valve.

I’ve tried using different products, including epoxy to fill the gap more permanently, and/or to achieve a better ‘look’ but this actually causes more problems than it solves. Also, I’m not in the business of ‘covering up’ my work … I’m in the business of making musical instruments that perform to the highest standards I can achieve.

I have explored all the above methods for upwards of a decade working on melodeons (prior to this I worked for over 20 years on concertinas). Wherever possible I use the more conventional Options 1 or 2 … where this is not possible or does not produce the optimum outcome, Option 5 is an extremely effective alternative.

Now the uncomfortable bit ...

To have one’s professional work subjected to criticism in a public forum, via a discussion thread initiated by the Adminstrator, is deeply upsetting. The discussion was not started in an enquiring, non-judgemental manner. Whilst it pretended to invite comment/discussion it was initiated with a formed view that such work was sub-standard, deserving of criticism and in need of correction. It attracted the expected chorus of disapproval. The post concluded with a warning for anyone buying a converted Liliput to beware, lest it contain such reedwork.

Might I suggest that this is now followed up with emails to John Spiers, Ollie King and Owen Woods (among many others) advising them that the instruments set up by me which they use professionally, for recording and performance, contain some reeds that – according to the OP - require replacement. Perhaps their audiences should also be warned. 

I am sending a PM asking that my membership of Melnet be cancelled with immediate effect. The thread I recently started on Soundboards was put together as a final ‘contribution to the cause’ … it needed to be said.

Those who know me, and like me, have my contact details … I see lots of people on the Festival circuit and my website is not difficult to find … I love my work and will always do my best for my customers, many of whom are now my friends.

I’m currently working on an 18-bass Mory, a 12 bass C#/D Erica conversion for an American Irish player and a 4-voice LMMH Corso in D/G for a professional player.

I know my worth.

Oll an gwella especially Paul, Rees, Pikey, Andy, Steve, Phil and Squeezy.

Mike R
Logged

triskel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3290
Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2017, 05:52:55 AM »

This brings to mind a "right" and "wrong" repair technique dilemma that I've encountered myself over the past week, as a result of being asked to install HO gauge "railroad spikes" to act as a 5th-string capo on a banjo. They're a recognised practice amongst 5-string banjo aficionados who prefer the "minimal interference" approach, and don't want to have to screw a fancy (and obtrusive) sliding 5th-string capo, on a long bar, onto the side of the neck, and especially so when dealing with a precious vintage instrument.

Therefore I read the instructions of different banjo fettlers, and watched numerous YouTube videos of them in action, to find out the "best practice" way of doing the job - only to realise that they all do it differently, contradict oneanother, and even tell you to do totally the opposite to what anybody else says...  So in the end, I took what seemed like the best ideas from a few of them, used my common sense, and "did it my way" - and it works very effectively and the banjo's owner is very happy with the job - and it can easily be reversed at a later stage with no real harm being done to the instrument.

There's a lot to be said for doing a job that achieves the objective with minimal interference, and preserves the integrity of a precious instrument as much as possible - and there's always room for innovative and experimental techniques that take those considerations into account. We don't all do things the exact same way, even if we do have the same ends in mind.

But one man's meat can seem another man's poison...

Don't go anywhere Mike - we need you!

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal