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Author Topic: Acceptable?  (Read 8988 times)

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Malcolm Clapp

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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2017, 06:45:30 AM »

As a repairer of melodeons of long standing, I have seen a fair bit of work from other repairers, ancient and recent, both from Australia and from overseas, which I have not been totally happy with. By the same token, I'm sure that some of my own methods have been questioned by other repairers.

Occasionally I have had the chance to discuss such matters with parties concerned, and often I have come around to their way of thinking, and sometimes, they to mine. I consider this a valuable learning opportunity for all concerned, for I believe that none of us has all the answers.

I'm sure that every repairer has their own good reasons for doing things "their way", and I certainly congratulate Microbot for providing a thorough explanation for his methodology of the matter in question. The bottom line is that if it works for you and your customer base, so be it. Others may follow, or not; our choice. AFAIK, there is no definitive textbook on the subject (yet) and even if there were, I'm sure many repairers would choose to disagree on certain aspects.

In adopting a certain approach to a problem repair, sometimes it is a case of either taking a comparatively unorthodox (i.e. non-factory) course of action, or not being able to successfully undertake the repair at all. I have usually erred towards the latter course, though I shudder a bit when I consider the fine instruments I've scrapped for want of a part or two, and the disappointment of customers who's requests I was unable or unwilling to meet. Fortunately, this balance has changed somewhat in recent years, thanks to the internet and to this forum in particular, so that solutions can be sought and discussed. Long may it be so, but sad to hear that it will not be with Microbot's participation.

My 10c worth....
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 07:08:04 AM by Malcolm Clapp »
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WestOz

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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2017, 07:25:50 AM »

Microbot's acknowledgement that he was the person responsible for foreshortening reeds, with the explanation as to why, seems to me to be both courageous (in the face of the criticism), and reasonable. I have had 6 boxes (Preciosas, Liliputs, Pressedwoods) converted to alternative keys by him, to my complete satisfaction. I add that none of these boxes contains foreshortened reeds, but if they did I would be confident that his decision to make that modification would have been in order to give the best result possible.
In addition to his providing me with his professional services, he has freely guided me to be able to be able to undertake my own repairs, living in Perth, far from Fettlers.
I hope his fulsome explanation is commented on and accepted by those who have seen fit to make initial judgements, and I hope that they will join with me in asking Mike to reconsider and withdraw his resignation from Melnet. It would be a much poorer forum without him. Terry
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911377brian

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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2017, 09:37:04 AM »

Mike, it was you that got me into this downward spiral of expense and MADness six or so years ago by selling me a beautiful, rebuilt honey of a 1040. You then went on to source and rebuild several more in different keys, all little works of magic. You then had the gall to fit Hohner reeds in a couple of 'toy' boxes making them the instruments of choice for travelling and light busking.But you didn't stop there, you were merciless. You took a junk 114 in C and turned it into a gorgeous Bb, rewaxed re everything. You turned me into a one row junky Mike, and I love you for it. Travel well, dear old Bellman. :'(
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Winston Smith

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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2017, 10:15:04 AM »

There will always be a certain tension between "The Establishment" (i.e. in this case, seemingly most of the repairers on here) and those who see themselves as innovators or who assert that what works, is what's best to make people happy. It's all a matter of opinion and certain "standards" being accepted, or not!   
In this thread, it seems to me that the OP (Theo, of course) viewed the repair as sub-standard and consequently stated the "Establishment" line, obviously not entirely wrongly as evidenced by the various posts agreeing.
It was no less right and proper for Microbot to publicly own and defend his work, his opinions also (evidently) backed up by some of our more famous members.
What should not happen, especially on this most helpful and inclusive of forums, is that anyone should take the huff and withdraw over a simple disagreement! I would therefore beg Mr Rowbotham to reconsider the worth of the forum; to himself, and his continued membership to his many friends and customers on it.
Perceived "Sticks and stones" may break my bones, but names can never hurt me! (Unless I choose to let them!)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 12:15:41 PM by Edward Jennings »
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Jack Humphreys

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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2017, 10:37:29 AM »

 Writing to give appreciation for the quality of Mike Rowbotham's work. I trusted him to retune several notes of my new Clement Guais, after a keyboard error: the newly altered notes are now indistinguisable from the rest.  I have also briefly owned a one-row Hohner which he had converted to Bando tuning: amazing quality of sound and responsiveness.  Owen Woods has special versions of the small Hohners, converted by Mike: Owen recommended Mike to me as "a total perfectionist".
I was relieved to find Mike as a  craftsman I can rely on, as  I have twice had to send back boxes to other tuners, because of inconsistent tuning of MM.
So, as  non-technician, I readily accept Mike's expert judgment on technical matters.

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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2017, 11:27:37 AM »

When Mike branched out to working on melodeons, I had one of his early Hohner DG conversions in about 2007 or 2008, and others since, to my exact specifications. All have worked just fine for me, and, as with other repairers or fettlers that I trust and use, I have always assumed that such expert craftsmen would do the work as they felt best and with the aim of achieving the result their customers expect.

I have been playing, with a couple of gaps, since the 1960's, and have tinkered quite enough with boxes to know what to expect and when to leave it to the experts. Mike is one of those, as are the other chaps here who've done excellent work for me. When it comes down to the art of turning a leaden instrument into a golden one, I can only gawp in amazement at what he achieves.

For all the many and obvious reasons, I hope that Mike will reconsider his departure from here.

Peter in Suffolk
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Phil B

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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2017, 02:04:25 PM »

When considering the methods discussed in these posts I believe it is worth remembering, as I well know, that Mike R gives a lifetime guarantee to his work and I am sure would always rectify any fault in a box he has worked on.
I to hope that he will feel able to contribute to the forum in the future.
Phil B
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hallelujahal

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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2017, 10:45:12 PM »

I am totally gutted that Mike has decided to leave melnet...☹️☹️☹️
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Caroline

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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2017, 07:15:11 AM »

It was no less right and proper for Microbot to publicly own and defend his work, his opinions also (evidently) backed up by some of our more famous members.
What should not happen, especially on this most helpful and inclusive of forums, is that anyone should take the huff and withdraw over a simple disagreement! I would therefore beg Mr Rowbotham to reconsider the worth of the forum; to himself, and his continued membership to his many friends and customers on it.
Perceived "Sticks and stones" may break my bones, but names can never hurt me! (Unless I choose to let them!)

Not being technically minded I would not have even looked at this thread had it not been specifically pointed out to me, I'm not in a position to make any comment about fettling by anyone - BUT......
This is hardly a simple disagreement and I don't think one could interpret Microbot's withdrawal from the forum as "taking the huff".  In my opinion this thread appears to totally discredit Microbot (despite some support from satisfied customers), and may have a drastic effect of his livelihood. 
Given his detailed response and description of methods he 'could' use I'm wondering why the fettlers of this forum remain quiet? If there's nothing more to be said then would it be appropriate to lock this rather contentious and sad thread?

Caroline
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Malcolm Clapp

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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2017, 08:07:14 AM »


... I'm wondering why the fettlers of this forum remain quiet? If there's nothing more to be said then would it be appropriate to lock this rather contentious and sad thread?

Caroline

Maybe only two of us work on Sundays.... >:E  (and one of us is supposed to be retired!!!)

Seriously though, I suspect (hope?) that maybe there is a little off-line communication taking place, and perhaps to lock this thread may not be a bad idea....
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Jack Humphreys

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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2017, 08:45:08 AM »

I have had personal melodeons with this mod from very respectable fettlers. More than one, on the bass reeds usually in small reed instruments, were I assume no easy alternatives were available. I have never questioned it,I trust their judgement and have never had an issue. I think you could make too much off this as an issue and it probably less common now. I agree tape might need replacing but so does wax and reeds. I think I like to understand the inside as well as the outside of my instruments and it is fair to highlight it but it is used as is solder etc.I think I would find it acceptable if done by trusted fettlers so dont panic if you are driven to open your machine.May be sometimes if it sounds right its better not to look.If it dont you are either confident with the repair or will go to your repair man.



It's how it sounds that matters, seems to me; not what it looks like.

squeezy

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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2017, 09:24:40 AM »

Furious to read this this morning.  I'd briefly looked at this thread before and thought it a little out of character but frankly it was a bit of a boring subject to get involved with.  If a fettling technique gives a good, long-lasting solution then discussion of the mechanics being right or wrong is rarely any more than a lot of stale hot air.

When I set up melnet, one of the main goals was that it was completely impartial because at the time there was no reliable information about boxes without it coming from a shop with interests in selling one brand over another.  The same was true for repairs and tuning.

Running a forum is not an easy thing.  I did it for years and it got to the point where I couldn't cope with the unpaid admin work.  At that point I was incredibly grateful to Theo for taking the responsibility from my hands.

When I handed the reins over to Theo et al, the only thing I asked for was that the impartiality rule remain in place and be fiercely guarded because I was worried about a conflict of interests.  I personally think this thread shows that it has eroded to the point that it is actually detrimental to the purpose of the forums because Microbot (a wealth of knowledge and deep thinking/innovating in the tiny world of squeezeboxes) has had his work directly attacked by a fellow fettler who also happens to be the person who runs the forum.  This has led to him leaving the forum and making it a poorer place for all of us.

I have used a wide variety of tuners and restorers in my time as a melodeon owner ... all I will say about Mike Rowbotham is that at the moment he is my first choice for tuning, conversions etc. because the results he gets are consistently far superior to any other people (apart from Nils Nielsen) that I've used.  I don't give a fig about the methods used as long as they work.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 09:49:43 AM by squeezy »
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Garry Probert

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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2017, 10:39:22 AM »

I find some of the comments quite frankly astonishing ,bad practice is bad practice and to imply it's some sort of wonderful innovation is just silly.
We should all be  grateful to theo for bringing this awful practice to our attention

I've had several wonderful instrument in the workshop over the years butchered by unscrupulous individuals and personally I have little interest in the triva posts on designers straps, inlays, button colours ,bellows painting whos got the most reeds etc but find the complexity of setup reed tuning fascinating.

Quote
When I set up melnet, one of the main goals was that it was completely impartial because at the time there was no reliable information about boxes without it coming from a shop with interests in selling one brand over another.  The same was true for repairs and tuning.

I would humbly suggest theos post embodies the aims of the forum creator, reliable impartial information for the members.

If as a novice to melodeons ,I had posted "innovative tuning option" trim and tape
I wonder how it would have been received.
   
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squeezy

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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2017, 10:51:33 AM »

But I don't think it's bad practice.

A reed is a disposable item in a melodeon, they can break at any time from simply playing. 

Reeds are much cheaper than violin strings for example.

Reacting to treatment of a single reed as if it is ruining a whole instrument is preposterous.

I honestly don't know if any of the reeds in my boxes fettled by Mike have been subject to this practice ... if there are any ... then the proof of the pudding would seem to be in the eating as they all sound superb and I will be using his services again.

Compare that with a couple of melodeons I have sent away in the past to be tuned by another 'respected' tuner on the melnet list ... I felt it would be bad manners to come on here and say how disastrously badly they had been tuned ... all I did in that case was never use the tuning services of that particular person again.
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Anahata

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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2017, 11:10:10 AM »

This seems to be turning out more like the "butt joints vs. mitred joints" debate (got very polarized and heated along the lines of "there's only one right way to do it" vs. "if it's good enough for $RESPECTED_MAKER it's good enough for me") or the "waxed vs. nailed" discussion (not so heated, it turns out both methods are perfectly OK).

Microbot's defence is that he had good reasons for doing what he did, but nevertheless Theo was investigating notes that didn't sound right. I'm not a fettler myself; I'm not fit to take sides here, but it doesn't look too clear-cut anymore.

Perhaps some private discussion between the two would have resolved matters in a less controversial way.
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squeezy

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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2017, 11:20:39 AM »

This seems to be turning out more like the "butt joints vs. mitred joints" debate (got very polarized and heated along the lines of "there's only one right way to do it" vs. "if it's good enough for $RESPECTED_MAKER it's good enough for me") or the "waxed vs. nailed" discussion (not so heated, it turns out both methods are perfectly OK).

I agree ... but I do think that there's an establishment out there that gets very confused between the traditional way of doing things and the best way of doing things ... the non-traditional way is not always a bad way.  If you think it gets silly here, try talking to the Italian makers about making very minor and far less controversial design changes!

And I'd like to add my voice to the number that have already said that they wish this had been done by personal communication from the very start.
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TomBom

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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2017, 01:00:39 PM »

Take care if buying a converted Liliput!
why NOT just take it as original key -that it is made in  ;) and enjoy?  and think what you are asking your repairer to do for you.
play C/F or Bb/Eb if you must have a liliput they weren't made in anyother key as far as know.
Yes why not keeping these boxes in their original key. And why declubbing club boxes?
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Theo

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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2017, 01:23:31 PM »

Just a couple of thoughts to add at this point:

My posts are not an attack on a person, they about a repair technique which I don't think is suitable. My first post seems clear to me on this.

I regret the Mike Rowbotham has decided to leave the forum as a result.  I would much prefer that he remain to contribute to the discussion.

Theo
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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2017, 02:49:08 PM »

The originating post was entirely impartial, no name was mentioned. Thank you Theo for illustrating a modification that a purchaser or refurbishment customer may, or may not, wish to have in their intstrument.
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syale

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Re: Acceptable?
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2017, 02:51:51 PM »

I sent this to Mike, privately...

"In my opinion it took a lot of courage to write the post and I applaud you for it. As with others I ask you not to leave but that, ultimately, is your call.  Standing up to be counted, again in my opinion, is a measurable trait and I like it. I am a business intelligence guy and I have been judged by my peers about some code I wrote. I stood up and said it was me and here are the reasons. There was a lot of umming and ahhing and some people agreed with me and some didn't, ultimately my code is still working years later.

You can please some of the people all of the time etc."

Fit for purpose is a phrase that springs to mind.

Stephen
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