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Author Topic: Hohner reed questions  (Read 3456 times)

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mselic

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Hohner reed questions
« on: July 14, 2017, 03:58:58 PM »

I recently acquired an old, German-made Hohner HA114 in D (silver ends and tape) that, aside from two minor wear marks that would suggest otherwise, looks brand new and unplayed.  I even have the original box it came in.  The reeds sound fantastic and begin to sound with even the smallest amount of pressure.

A few of the notes need tuning on both the treble and bass side.  There is one M pull note that chokes.  From what I understand, this happens when the gap is set too low? The reed has a difficult time sounding unless I give the box a good strong pull and get the air moving - the reed will then sound clearly for a time but will revert to choking again soon after.  The reed will always choke under a small amount of pressure.  What would be the cause of this? I thought reeds choked if you used too much pressure and the gap was too low...To compound matters, I noticed a few times that while the pull note was choking, the push note would then struggle a little as well, although this only happened a few times.  I opened up the box and the reed plate and wax looks fine.

My other question pertains to reed response on these old Hohners.  The reeds sound very sweet and respond immediately under pressure, however in general the box takes a fair bit of work to play.  I don't expect the same response from Hohner reeds as I would with Bincis (as I have in my other one row), but I've noticed on older Hohners that some boxes play with great ease while others take muscle, and yet they all had reeds that would speak well under small pressure.  What might account for this difference? In a box such as mine, the reeds speak right away but it almost feels like there is resistance when pushing and pulling.  I did notice that the reed gap is very small or almost non-existent on many of the reeds.
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pgroff

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Re: Hohner reed questions
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2017, 04:21:30 PM »

Hi mselic,

Sounds like this box was never played much. They do play in, so keep working with it. That's to say, they play more easily over time due to flexing of bellows and reeds (assuming that nothing has gone wrong). Also a well-played box may have gone back for service that can also improve it. Most new-from-factory Hohners (even in the 1950s and 1960s) were never perfectly set up and could benefit from more fine attention to reed set and tuning.

If I had it in hand, I might be able to diagnose it more easily. But check out these possibilities:

Are the bellows stiff (either because they have had little play, or because they have stiffened in long decades of storage)?

Are all the reed leathers (plastic) fully opening? Sometimes, some of these get stuck down over long storage, or are not set up to open sufficiently.

You mention that (some of ?) the reed tongues seem set very low. Can you identify particular reeds that seem to take more force to play and check whether those are especially low?

And here's a big one: Are the buttons set up for very little travel? That can prevent the pallets from opening sufficiently to let the reeds breathe freely.

I could go on . . .

PG
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Theo

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Re: Hohner reed questions
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2017, 05:27:51 PM »

I suspect that it could be problem with the reed wax.  Silver ended box is likely 50 yeas old, thexwax make look perfect but at that age there can be places where the wax no longer grips the reed plate tightly which can lead to some notes sounding out of tune, and might explain the intermittent on the push/pull pair of reeds appearing to affect each other.  Keep playing as advised by Paul.  If it gets better then that's good.  If it gets worse then a re-wax is the most likely cure.
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pgroff

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Re: Hohner reed questions
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2017, 06:19:09 PM »

I suspect that it could be problem with the reed wax.  Silver ended box is likely 50 yeas old, thexwax make look perfect but at that age there can be places where the wax no longer grips the reed plate tightly which can lead to some notes sounding out of tune, and might explain the intermittent on the push/pull pair of reeds appearing to affect each other.  Keep playing as advised by Paul.  If it gets better then that's good.  If it gets worse then a re-wax is the most likely cure.

Absolutely agree and sorry I did not mention that as the most likely culprit!

PG
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Harmonicatunes

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Re: Hohner reed questions
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2017, 12:20:45 AM »

I have an HA 114 in D which was set up by Theo. A great instrument, even more so after I fitted new bellows from Igor Solinc.
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mselic

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Re: Hohner reed questions
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2017, 04:53:38 AM »

Are the bellows stiff (either because they have had little play, or because they have stiffened in long decades of storage)?

Are all the reed leathers (plastic) fully opening? Sometimes, some of these get stuck down over long storage, or are not set up to open sufficiently.

You mention that (some of ?) the reed tongues seem set very low. Can you identify particular reeds that seem to take more force to play and check whether those are especially low?

Thanks for those suggestions, Paul.  The bellows aren't stiff, and I rarely ever stretch them open to the point where that would be an issue anyway.  The plastic valves look pretty good, with just a couple that don't rest perfectly flat.  The valve on the affected reedplate actually has a bit of a bend in it, although I don't think that's what's causing the problem here.  I'm not sure how'd I'd check to see if the valves are set up to open properly.

In regards to the reed gap, many of the reed tongues are resting just above the opening of the reedplate, with no visible gap between the two.  As a I mentioned, all but the affected reed(s) respond well with minimal pressure.  The only other exception would be the highest of the H reeds which struggle a little.

I suspect that it could be problem with the reed wax.  Silver ended box is likely 50 yeas old, thexwax make look perfect but at that age there can be places where the wax no longer grips the reed plate tightly which can lead to some notes sounding out of tune, and might explain the intermittent on the push/pull pair of reeds appearing to affect each other.  Keep playing as advised by Paul.  If it gets better then that's good.  If it gets worse then a re-wax is the most likely cure.

Reed wax was my first thought, too.  I was experiencing a similar problem on another box that turned out to have a loose reedplate.  On this box, the reedplates are held in place with little "screws" or tacks as well as wax, but I was unable to find a problem spot or detect movement in the reedplate.  However, it does seem to be a likely culprit.  There was one other reed that would not speak at all when I first tried the box, but this turned out to be a bit of wax stuck on the reed tip and was easily fixed.

It may be important to note that the affected pull note was not an issue when I first got the box.  It was only after about an hour or so of playing it for the first time that the pull note began to choke.  It is now only temporarily remedied by a good hard PULL on that note, but it's certainly not getting better on its own.  Does that sound like it could be a wax problem?

I have an HA 114 in D which was set up by Theo. A great instrument, even more so after I fitted new bellows from Igor Solinc.

I think this HA114 in D could be a great instrument.  It will need some tuning work, and then perhaps just broken in over time?  It has a glorious sound, even compared with my Binci-reeded Beltuna one-row.  I used to own a Chinese-made HA114 in D, but it did not sound nearly as good as this one.

I have to admit I'm not sure why new bellows would make a difference? Why did you replace the ones that came with yours?  These days I rarely get the bellows anywhere close to fully extended, and that's with loud and vigorous playing too.  I don't see where the resistance would come from unless the bellows were fully stretched open and could go no more.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 04:58:52 AM by mselic »
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mselic

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Re: Hohner reed questions
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2017, 01:24:45 AM »

I got the box back from the tech/tuner today.  A couple of the reeds had to be swapped out because they weren't responding to being tuned - basically he said the reeds had failed or weren't any good anymore.

The push/pull note that I had trouble with continues to be an issue.  He changed the wax, valves, tuned the reeds, set the gap, etc. but it still did not respond well.  Sometime it would be OK, but if only a small amount of pressure was used the reed would often sound sick.  At the end of the day, he told me that if it continued to be a problem, that reed would have to be swapped out as well.  Unfortunately for me, I'm now back home, the problem has returned, and I won't be able to make the long drive back to the shop again any time soon.  Is it possible to buy single, Hohner reeds (on reedplate)?  I'm thinking that if I could order the offending reed(s) and plate that I could just remove the old one and wax the new one into place.
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george garside

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Re: Hohner reed questions
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2017, 02:57:23 AM »

yes it is - but the new reed would still need skilled tuning to blend it in with its neighbours

george
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Theo

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Re: Hohner reed questions
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2017, 10:53:33 AM »


The push/pull note that I had trouble with continues to be an issue.  He changed the wax, valves, tuned the reeds, set the gap, etc. but it still did not respond well.  Sometime it would be OK, but if only a small amount of pressure was used the reed would often sound sick.  At the end of the day, he told me that if it continued to be a problem, that reed would have to be swapped out as well.

Did your tech replace ALL the reed wax?    That is most important. Your symptoms are exactly what happens with failing wax.

Assuming all the wax has been replace the from you description that could most likely be caused by a very slight contact between reed tongue and plate as a result of  the reed tongue not centred in it's slot, something stuck to the edge of the reed tongue eg rust, wax, or a burr from filing, or damage to the edge of the vent that the reed tongue works in. 

Usually the only reason to replace a reed is when it is cracked which is very obvious because the pitch goes flat rather quickly.

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mselic

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Re: Hohner reed questions
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2017, 01:14:05 PM »


Did your tech replace ALL the reed wax?    That is most important. Your symptoms are exactly what happens with failing wax.


It doesn't look like he replaced all the wax. I asked him about it and he said the wax was not an issue. Should I scrap away all the wax around that reedplate and replace it with new wax? Using a dropper or something? Not sure how else you'd be able to get wax in thosr hard to reach spots on the HA114.
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diatonix

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Re: Hohner reed questions
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2017, 01:30:33 PM »

My advice would be to try and find a skilled repairman/tuner who knows what he is doing. Lately, I've just seen a couple too many poor jobs...
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Theo

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Re: Hohner reed questions
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2017, 01:36:34 PM »

It sounds as if your repairer convinced himself the problem was the reeds not the wax.  Of course replacing a reed would fix the problem with that reed because it would have to have new wax too.  I have spent long periods of time learning this from my own inexperience.

As a test I suggest you identify a reed that is not sounding properly as you described, then use a soldering iron to melt the wax areound the edges of that reed plate only.  If the reed then plays as it should then you know the wax is at fault.  If the problem persists it's something else.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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mselic

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Re: Hohner reed questions
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2017, 02:10:39 PM »

I was present with the tech/tuner while we were troubleshooting the problematic reed.  He pulled the reed plate out several times, replaced the valves, cleaned up around the reed, etc. and then each time used a soldering iron to melt the wax back in place.  It seems like the wax was not the issue, although maybe I'm mistaken...Performance was improved slightly, but it still struggled. 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 02:15:30 PM by mselic »
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Malcolm Clapp

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Re: Hohner reed questions
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2017, 07:31:07 AM »

Long shot, but just check that the leather on the pallet over the offending reed isn't loose and remains stuck partly over the hole(s) it covers rather than being withdrawn along with the pallet when it opens. Sometimes this happens when a bit of wax or glue has got under the pad, adhered to the leather and has caused it to pull away from the pallet when the button is depressed.
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gettabettabox

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Re: Hohner reed questions
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2017, 09:29:09 AM »

Sounds very much like an old, unplayed box.
A bit different to a new, unplayed box.
There are many factors to consider, buttons and action, spring strength, bellows, number of folds, reed setting, rogue reeds, debris, stopper slide setting.... but as advised by pgroff,  playing will most likely improve the general response.
I am surprised that your technician gave attention to this, but still left the problem with you.
I would be inclined to play it on single reed bank settings occasionally, which can help to identify poorly responding reeds and related problems, but as you likely know, the reeds respond better when in unison.
It should turn into a very nice instrument. (I have a
HA113 in D here with H reeds and original leather valves, which could be improved, but it's original and playable, so I'm leaving it be!)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 09:31:10 AM by gettabettabox »
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gettabettabox

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Re: Hohner reed questions
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2017, 09:46:12 AM »

Just to add...I would be inclined to put a good few hours of playing into an older box before deciding what needs doing.
Bring it back to life, warts and all, before seeing the cosmetic surgeon.  :||:
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Psuggmog Volbenz

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Re: Hohner reed questions
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2017, 08:28:54 AM »

One other thought, try swapping  the reedblock with the troublesome reed, temporarily, with another reedblock in a differet position on the treble board. See if the behavior changes. If so, this might lead you to a different conclusion as to the fault.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 08:22:43 AM by Psuggmog Volbenz »
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mselic

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Re: Hohner reed questions
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2017, 07:13:52 PM »

The problem with the reed seems to have all but disappeared, seemingly without explanation, and without me having done anything else with it.  The reed in question now sounds OK even with small pressure.  Not sure what would have caused this change, but I suppose it might return at some point...I had looked over the valves (which had been changed numerous times, and inspected to make sure they were working properly), checked reed gap, etc.  The problem vanished overnight.

Sounds very much like an old, unplayed box.
A bit different to a new, unplayed box.

I'm quite interested by this...why would this be the case?  This box definitely feels stiff and unplayed, and I attribute this more to the reeds not really being broken-in than to the mechanics of keyboard, etc.  Is it comparable to an old car that has sat unused for many years?  I would have thought a melodeon sitting unused for years on a shelf would be more like a brand new, unplayed box.  I imagine this one will (hopefully) only get better the more it's played.

One other thought, try swapping  the reedblock with the troublesome reed, temporarily, with another reedblock in a differet position on the treble board. See if the behavior changes. If so, this might lead you to a diffent conclusion as to the fault.

The reedblocks on the HA114s are glued down.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 07:16:12 PM by mselic »
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Theo

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Re: Hohner reed questions
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2017, 08:48:43 PM »

If the reed has started to play normally it probably just had a tiny bit of wax or something else stuck to the edge of the reed tongue.  When you disturb old wax it can be very powdery and it's hard to prevent some crumbs of wax getting loose in among the reeds.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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mselic

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Re: Hohner reed questions
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2017, 09:07:01 PM »

If the reed has started to play normally it probably just had a tiny bit of wax or something else stuck to the edge of the reed tongue.  When you disturb old wax it can be very powdery and it's hard to prevent some crumbs of wax getting loose in among the reeds.

I had inspected the reed carefully many times over, looking for any small obstructions such as wax, and could find none.  Both myself and the tuner went over the same reed again and again and could not find the source of the fault.  Without being able to find the original cause, I feel like I've learned nothing!

Also, I can't understand why the repair tech/tuner wouldn't have removed all the old wax and replaced it with new.  I asked him about this and he said the wax that was there was OK.  I certainly don't think he is being lazy, but perhaps this is poor judgement on his part?
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C#/D Serenellini 233, Manfrini, Saltarelle Irish Bouebe, and a few HA114s
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