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[Tone Dumb Greg]

Please can anyone tell me what key Bagpiper's is in? In case you missed it, it was melnet tune of the month, last December.

It seems to break all the normal rules, as commonly played on a DG.  It has grown on me, immensely, over the months and it is going down rather well in sessions when stuck in the middle of an E minor set (as long as it is strictly rationed), but I don't think it's in E minor, or aeolian, or any E based key or mode,  come to that.

It ought to be in G as it resolves onto that note, but the main theme is harmonised with Cmaj, so that doesn't feel right either.

C lydian (edit, I think I mean mixolydian, woops)? So how come it never resolves on a c and has hardly any in it?

And don't start me on the B part.

[Jack Campin]

Oscillates between G major and D major.

[george garside]

In practical terms its A with a Gnat instead of G#. ( the hohner highlander mouthie is specialy made with that tuning to go with the pipes).   

Pipe tunes are easy to play on a DG box by playing in A on the D row  because the missing G# doesn't matter as some pipe tunes are completey G-less and some have Gnat  instead of G#

try something simple like cock of the north, 100 pipers, Lord lovats lament, etc to get the hang of it

george

[Tone Dumb Greg]

Oscillates between G major and D major.

That is what they appear to be in, but how can a tune be a key if it doesn't have that chord in the harmony?

[george garside]

do we need to worry about it being in a ' key '?

george

[Julian S]

And doesn't it depend what note you start on ? Or am I musically illiterate ?


J

[Tone Dumb Greg]

do we need to worry about it being in a ' key '?

george

# Maybe not, but as someone who played backup for British dance music for a few years I know that not understanding keys and modes leads to mistakes in harmonic choices.

Also, understanding what is going on in a tune generally helps me find ways of playing it. I would never have thought of harmonising this tune the way Clive does but, having heard it, I loved it. My first choice was Em through most of the melody in the A part, resolving on Gmaj. This didn't sound anything like as good, to my ears. If I can work out what is happening here and why, it might help me in the future. Greater understanding is always a good thing, in my experience. 

[Tone Dumb Greg]

And doesn't it depend what note you start on ? Or am I musically illiterate ?

The simple answer is no, Julian. Many tunes do not start with the root note of the key. Or a note in the the chord, come to that. Most of the time, but not always, they finish on the root note and generally with the chord. At least they do in traditional dance music 


J

[Julian S]

I follow and understand that Greg - fully agree with your comment. To clarify mine -  if you just start the tune on a different note then isn't it simply going to be in a different key ? So we can transpose a tune to any key we like - or perhaps not - I stopped learning music theory decades ago !
Whether we can play it in different keys (and have suitable chords available) on the melodeon is another matter. And there's another question - whether some tunes simply sound better in certain keys...?

J

[george garside]

one of the reasons I like the 3 row British Chromatic (BCC#) with stradella  bass is that it is easy to experiment by playing the same tune in several keys ( all 12 if you like!)   Many tunes that would normally be played in D & G in sessions can sound altogether nicer, to my ears anyway, in other keys .  eg to me Maggie sound best in E and home on the range sounds good in Ab.

That's not to say  I in anyway dislike  the DG box and indeed when in predominantly DG land  and for 'english' ceilidhs  I  have used a MML serenellini  for many years as there is nothing to be gained from a more elaborate and much heavier box

george

[Tone Dumb Greg]

I follow and understand that Greg - fully agree with your comment. To clarify mine -  if you just start the tune on a different note then isn't it simply going to be in a different key ? So we can transpose a tune to any key we like - or perhaps not - I stopped learning music theory decades ago !
Whether we can play it in different keys (and have suitable chords available) on the melodeon is another matter. And there's another question - whether some tunes simply sound better in certain keys...?

J

Hmm. Can't tell from this if you have a working knowledge of modes? It's very useful. If you do then I hope it doesn't sound like teaching your granny etc. but, just in case you don't: If we play a tune on a diatonic instrument in position that means we finish on the home note of the key, let's say G, then we are playing the tune in G major. This corresponds to the (major) ionian mode. If we move the whole tune up 1 note and play it resolving on A then th tune will not only be higher, it will sound very different. This is because the relationship between the notes changes-the intervals, if you like. What you are doing is changing the mode of the tune, as well as the home note. In this case it would be in the minor mode,  A dorian. Like George says, you don't have to know this but I find it helps me to know what's going on.
This is a good straightforward description. http://musictheoryfundamentals.com/MusicTheory/modes.php Apologies if you know all this already.

[Tone Dumb Greg]

So, getting back to Bagpipers, if I understand George right, he is suggesting playing pipe tunes can work, generally, on the D row in a position that finishes on the A note. i.e., in A myxolidian. If I have this right I wonder what drones normally get played behind the tune? I don't know anything about pipe drones and I haven't found a recording of this on pipes. Googling it gives over 600,000 hits. I don't know how to refine the search.

I'm not sure Bagpipers would work quite like this, either. I haven't got the flexibility of a chromatic box, to experiment (score one to George) but I can't make it sound right on the DG.

I think Jack is right to say the melody is in G (with excursions into D mix). The point where I get confused is why does it sound so right against a droned C chord. Also, why does it sound so minor key to my ears when played like this? It sounds almost more like Em than some tunes that are definitely in Em and the beginning of the B part sounds like a typical G major excursion, although there's not a G note to be seen.

[george garside]

the notes available on the Scottish bagpipe chanter are simply ABCDEFGA and now't else  so it is as I have said effectively playing in A with Gnat rather than G#.

no need for a chromatic box, simply the D row of DG

eg cock of the north starts on E (pull)and finishes on A (piush)

as to a drone sound the nearest on a DG box is to hold the D/A bass or chord which is nowhere like authentic pipe drones.  If playing in A on a DG box I tend to tap  a VERY light rhythm  using the D/A bass  as a sort of slightly tuned percussion rather than trying to imitate the drones

george

george

[Theo]

George

Don't you mean ABC#DEF#GA

[george garside]

indeed!

george

[Julian S]

I've learnt quite a lot from this thread - thanks all. I wish I'd got my act together when Bagpipers/The Bagpipes was tune of the month and recorded my version. Which is in a different key to the original - my starting note is D rather than A, and I use a lot of C as drone. As I've usefully got a pull G chord on my Pastourelle, this is also really handy as a drone if I play it as per the Mittel ms. As to what sounds better...I ought to try and record both and invite comments...could take a while...
J

[Steve_freereeder]

no need for a chromatic box, simply the D row of DG
....
as to a drone sound the nearest on a DG box is to hold the D/A bass or chord which is nowhere like authentic pipe drones. 

When playing tunes in D on a D/G box it is often possible to play a more or less continuous D drone by alternating the push D and pull D basses/chords and, if possible, cross-rowing the RH melody so there aren't too many rapid bellows waggles.

Some Hohners have the push D and pull D chords in different inversions which can sound a bit odd when alternating the chords as just described, so in that case it's perhaps best to just stick to the bass notes to drone with.

The D drone using LH chords can also be rendered more effective if you can remove the thirds from the chords using a stop (or taping off).

[ChrisP]

Interesting that this should crop up, as I have just been struggling with it myself. There are a small but significant number of tunes on my site that in written notation simply require two sharps, f# and c#, but which are patently not in D major. But when using ABC you have to determine a key/mode in order to display the signature. So what modes could be employed for two sharps? Bmin, Amix, Glyd (and theoretically some others). And yet in all but a handful of the tunes in question none of these adequately describe the tune, since they modulate between two tonic centres (a clever bagpipe thing that tries to get round not being chromatic). So what to enter in ABC?
I am told that bagpipers long ago, after a lot of agonising, gave up trying to force these double-tonic tunes into the "received" theoretical modal system, and simply adopted "Highland (bag)Pipes" shortened to "Hp" as the key/mode. This displays f# c# g=. This is accepted in ABC Notation, and neatly sidesteps the whole pointless debate. (Sometimes they don't even bother displaying the f# and c# at all, since there's no choice in the matter!).
I don't know whether all that is relevant, as it's gone midnight and the Lidl wine was OK. In the end you have to work out the chords yourself.

[george garside]

the college of piping  (Glasgow) tutor book simply  shows the notes on the chanter as ABCDEFGA plus low G played be keeping all the holes covered

There is no key signature and no sharp/flat indication.

posted at 3am having got up for a pee and not getting off to sleep again!

george

[Julian S]

the college of piping  (Glasgow) tutor book simply  shows the notes on the chanter as ABCDEFGA plus low G played be keeping all the holes covered

There is no key signature and no sharp/flat indication.

posted at 3am having got up for a pee and not getting off to sleep again!

george

I could have done with a copy of that at 3am when I also couldn't sleep !

J