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Author Topic: advice on voices  (Read 2828 times)

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Chris123

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advice on voices
« on: July 25, 2017, 11:14:32 AM »

Hi I am new to melodeons + to the forum apologies if doing this incorrectly computers are also a bit of a challenge !! I  can play a D/G a bit having been lent the 'Morris spare' I am now ready to buy but am feeling very confused over the 'Voices' many light weight melodeons appear to have only 1 voice instead of 2 ,  do I need 2 voices? is the only difference the sound ( I understand they tend to be shriller) or is there an implication for wear and tear . I am likely to play Morris and general English folk  .
Any advice you can offer on a first purchase  would be gratefully accepted, I am happy to pay a little more if it gets me something I am happier with for longer .
Many Thanks
Chris 
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: advice on voices
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2017, 11:26:17 AM »

Hi I am new to melodeons + to the forum apologies if doing this incorrectly computers are also a bit of a challenge !! I  can play a D/G a bit having been lent the 'Morris spare' I am now ready to buy but am feeling very confused over the 'Voices' many light weight melodeons appear to have only 1 voice instead of 2 ,  do I need 2 voices? is the only difference the sound ( I understand they tend to be shriller) or is there an implication for wear and tear . I am likely to play Morris and general English folk  .
Any advice you can offer on a first purchase  would be gratefully accepted, I am happy to pay a little more if it gets me something I am happier with for longer .
Many Thanks
Chris

You will no doubt get quite a few replies, but for a starter box which will also stand you in good stead for years to come, you can't go wrong with a Hohner Pokerwork or Erica. Both are two voice melodeons, are well made, and are ideal for Morris and general English folk. They are quite lightweight, have a great 'English' strong sound, and have a standard sized keyboard.

The really popular single voice box is the Castagnari Lilly which is very lightweight and compact, and has a powerful cutting sound. However, a single voice box by definition means that you can't get that characteristic tremolo which just somehow goes with Morris music. The Lilly is at least double the price of a Hohner Pokerwork/Erica.


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Steve
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Grumpy

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Re: advice on voices
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2017, 11:48:36 AM »

Hi Chris, I am certainly no expert (plenty on here) but as I understand it when you push a key on a melodeon air is driven over the reed (s). A melodeon can, for any given button use one, two or even three reeds (voices) for the note. This only applies to the treble (right hand) end.The number of reeds (voices) within the box has a bearing on both the physical size and weight of the box. As examples, I have a Salterelle which has three voices (reeds) per treble button, a Pokerwork with two and a Castignari with one. I have tended to use the Castignari Lilly because of its light weight for Morris due to a bad back. Any melodeon other than the single reed can be described as either "wet" or "dry" tuned, this implies that, if wet tuned one reed will be exactly on tune (example A=440) and the other reed(s) tuned slightly high or low to give a tremelow effect, or near the note to give a dry tune. To add to the confusion some three voice melodeons have a stop to remove the third reed alowing you to play in two voice (reed) only. In this case you may well see the box described as either MMM or LMM. In the case of MMM all three reeds are of the same octive but may be wet or dry tuned. LMM means one of the reeds (L) is an octive lower, this is the reed that the stop allows you to remove. A single reeded (voice) cannot by its nature be wet or dry tuned. Listen and try as many boxes as you can, also listen to Youtube and decide your own preferences and needs, bearing in mind that a single voice box (Castignari Lilly ??) sounds far better in the hands of  an expert player than the most expensive three voice with an average player.
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Chris D, Surrey, UK
Getting old but still learning. Pokerwork G/D, Saltarelle L'Elfique G/D, Castagnari Lilly G/D and Hohner Liliput Declubed G/D + English concertinas, mandolins, recorders, tin whistles and other items unknown to household managment

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Re: advice on voices
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2017, 11:54:46 AM »

Listen to Steve, very good advice. You will find most that start with a Pokerwork tend to keep it even when they upgrade, and will return to it for comfort when required.
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Chris D, Surrey, UK
Getting old but still learning. Pokerwork G/D, Saltarelle L'Elfique G/D, Castagnari Lilly G/D and Hohner Liliput Declubed G/D + English concertinas, mandolins, recorders, tin whistles and other items unknown to household managment

Steve C.

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Re: advice on voices
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2017, 01:13:03 PM »

Hello Chris (123):  follow Steve's advice.  Start with the Pokerwork/Erica.  Zillions (including YT) have.  You will soon find that one "CAN NEVER BE HAPPIER FOR LONGER"  >:E  >:E  in the melodeon world, there are too many enticing toys.
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triskel

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Re: advice on voices
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2017, 02:41:06 PM »

A melodeon can, for any given button use one, two or even three reeds (voices) for the note.

That'd be right in an English traditional music 2-row context these days, though 10-key melodeons with stoppers are still generally 4-voice LMMH, whilst in an Irish or Scottish context you'd still see 2-row, 4-voice (usually Paolo Soprani) LMMM boxes, though most of my friends would normally play 3-voice MMM.

They'd be unusual but 6-voice, and even 8-voice, are not unknown, and just so you can hear one (and you can't hear much else! :o), this is my very good friend Anders Trabjerg playing his 1930's 8-voice Baldoni, Bartoli: Clare Lancers Set. Figure 3 

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Re: advice on voices
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2017, 05:22:49 PM »

Hi Chris, I am certainly no expert (plenty on here) but as I understand it when you push a key on a melodeon air is driven over the reed (s). A melodeon can, for any given button use one, two or even three reeds (voices) for the note. This only applies to the treble (right hand) end.The number of reeds (voices) within the box has a bearing on both the physical size and weight of the box. As examples, I have a Salterelle which has three voices (reeds) per treble button, a Pokerwork with two and a Castignari with one. I have tended to use the Castignari Lilly because of its light weight for Morris due to a bad back. Any melodeon other than the single reed can be described as either "wet" or "dry" tuned, this implies that, if wet tuned one reed will be exactly on tune (example A=440) and the other reed(s) tuned slightly high or low to give a tremelow effect, or near the note to give a dry tune. To add to the confusion some three voice melodeons have a stop to remove the third reed alowing you to play in two voice (reed) only. In this case you may well see the box described as either MMM or LMM. In the case of MMM all three reeds are of the same octive but may be wet or dry tuned. LMM means one of the reeds (L) is an octive lower, this is the reed that the stop allows you to remove. A single reeded (voice) cannot by its nature be wet or dry tuned. Listen and try as many boxes as you can, also listen to Youtube and decide your own preferences and needs, bearing in mind that a single voice box (Castignari Lilly ??) sounds far better in the hands of  an expert player than the most expensive three voice with an average player.
A lot more is explained here: Voices and Tunings - A Beginner's Guide.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: advice on voices
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2017, 05:43:06 PM »

I was confused too at the voices thing when first getting going.
That article. ( possibly updated now ) did help me to understand.
My main two boxes are 3 voice. For the majority of the time I just use the 2 voices, possibly 99%+ and just occasionally use the third voice. This is a lower reed so makes it sound fuller and less squeaky, and is for me a bonus attribute to them.
More voices add options when playing tunes, but I'd think ( as a gross generalisation ) a large proportion of players probably use 2 voice boxes.

If you can, try lots of different melodeons, as they all do feel and play differently. You've said you can play a bit so you'll have an idea for what feels good and sounds good. Then its down to what fits your pocket!
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I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

John MacKenzie (Cugiok)

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Re: advice on voices
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2017, 06:12:35 PM »

I think these are all 2 voice boxes, but it shows that they can vary quite a lot. So you need to get out there and try a few, to find what makes your ears sing.

Sir John

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george garside

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Re: advice on voices
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2017, 06:49:39 PM »

I am  firmly with the pokerwork/Erica brigade but would recommmend  a German made  in preference to the Chinese  madeversion of more recent years. 

The pokerwork and Erica are identical inside  so both will play and sound much the same.

 Stick with a pokerwork until you have gained substantial experience and also have  reasonable  knowledge of various makes and models

george
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: advice on voices
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2017, 07:37:03 PM »

and if you look here.......
https://soundcloud.com/microbot-2

and scroll down through the various list of boxes rebuilt, you can hear what 1,2& 3 voices sound like.
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Chris123

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Re: advice on voices
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2017, 07:09:25 PM »

Thank you all for your replies, I think I understand it better , it seems mainly down to the sound I want ,  has anyone come across a Black Diamond or knows anything about them, are they anything like an Erica for sound ?
Chris
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george garside

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Re: advice on voices
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2017, 09:17:46 PM »

Black diamond are Chinese with Italian reeds  and represent good value. there are a few youtube vids on them being played which will give you an idea as to what they sound like.

george
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: advice on voices
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2017, 09:24:35 PM »

Has anyone come across a Black Diamond or knows anything about them, are they anything like an Erica for sound ?
Chris
They're not bad - OK for beginners, but you won't get the 'full melodeon experience' out of them compared with a genuine Hohner Pokerwork or Erica (even the Chinese-made models are pretty good these days). There are a good number of top professional players who still use Hohner Pokerworks/Ericas, so that should tell you something about the instruments, but I don't know of anyone of similar calibre using Black Diamond boxes.
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Re: advice on voices
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2017, 01:12:25 PM »

Hello Chris--
since you are, I think, in melodeon Gods' Country, just run a post here on melnet: wanted, nice, refurb Hohner German Erica or Pokerwork, DG, reasonable.
Then sit and thou shall receive, sooner or later, probably sooner....
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Steve C.

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Re: advice on voices
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2017, 01:14:00 PM »

forgot to say, if you stick with the melodeon, you will keep this box FOREVER, no matter what new boxes you might "need"...
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Chris123

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Re: advice on voices
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2017, 03:29:44 PM »

Thanks yes its becoming apparent that many players have more than one box , in many ways a cheaper box seems sensible for Morris playing although its always sunny here in the North West!!!! 
Chris 
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MarioP

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Re: advice on voices
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2017, 04:48:02 PM »

If you can't get a D/G porkerwork or Erika due to the price (They do go high IMHO)
You can also try the Hohner Corona II in ADG you get an A 😂 Extra row and 4 more bases 💰
They do weight considerably 2kilo more than erikas but life lasting boxes ..

Other boxes in two voice are Hohner compadre relatively cheap Chinese version of corona II.

You can see Daddy Les playing his Erika and Compadre in the learning section link below:

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,9415.0.html
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Hohner Pre Corona II BsEsAs,Club IV C/F Pre-War, Liliput C/F, Mignon I (G) Piano from the 30s, Kromatica III from the 60s harmonica. Hohner Kids I. Pearl Forum series 80s, Zildjian, SabĂ­an, Wuhan cymbals. Ludwig snare 70s.

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Re: advice on voices
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2017, 01:26:27 AM »

If you can't get a D/G porkerwork ...

I remember those. They were a pig to play.
These days I am vegetarian.
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Steve
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: advice on voices
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2017, 01:28:48 AM »

Has anyone come across a Black Diamond or knows anything about them, are they anything like an Erica for sound ?
Chris
They're not bad - OK for beginners, but you won't get the 'full melodeon experience' out of them compared with a genuine Hohner Pokerwork or Erica (even the Chinese-made models are pretty good these days). There are a good number of top professional players who still use Hohner Pokerworks/Ericas, so that should tell you something about the instruments, but I don't know of anyone of similar calibre using Black Diamond boxes.

Well, here you go...
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,20905.msg251096.html#msg251096
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