Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: Another soundboardesque question  (Read 5094 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

boxcall

  • You got to love it!!!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1755
  • Accordion to who?
Re: Another soundboardesque question
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2017, 06:23:30 PM »

When I first got my pepperpot after putting the loose reeds back in and playing it. I took the grill off to look around. Well then reattach the grill but somehow I did not have it exactly in the right position, boy did that make it sound different. All seemed tight but there was movement there somewhere, I repositioned it and it went back to normal. So certainly with metal how well the grill is attached makes a difference. This material is pretty thin, maybe it wouldn't make as much difference with thicker metal? Probably a different thing but I thought I mention it.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 07:15:06 PM by boxcall »
Logged
Hohner 1040 C, Beltuna one row four stop D, O'Byrne Dewitt/ Baldoni bros. D/C#, Paolo soprani "pepperpot" one row D

Chris Rayner

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 467
Re: Another soundboardesque question
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2017, 06:37:03 PM »

Materials will influence the sound an instrument makes.  It’s physics.

While that's true, it's also true that the amount of that that influence varies, depending on how much the part in question is part of the sound production process on a particular instrument..

A grille can absorb high frequency sound if it's wood, less so if it's metal, and block a little sound. The absorption's a property of the surface hardness, not of how it vibrates.

Indeed.  There will also be a small amount of absorption and damping of sound within the wood.  On the whole musical instrument makers use wood species which are hard and so less absorptive.  There are some cheaper and softer woods which could be used for economy.  Fast grown coniferous tree wood would be like using balsa wood. 
Logged
Elderly amateur musician hoping to stave off dementia by learning to play the melodeon.  Main instrument a Tommy, also D/G and G/C pokerworks,  a single row 2 stop Hohner, and a new addition to the free reedery, a rather splendid Paolo Soprani four voice 120 bass c-system chromatic button accordion.  Very shiny, very loud, and about the same size and weight as a small car.  Now I’ve traded me Benny with (ahem) a cash adjustment, to a three voice 60 bass Castagnari K3.

melodeon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1732
Re: Another soundboardesque question
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2017, 09:57:49 PM »

 ....."either wood with steel resonator, often called dobro, or an entirely steel resonator guitar."""



DOBRO is an anacronym for Dopyra Bros who invented and produced a variety of resonator guitars..and later a spin off NATIONAL   and then Gibson bought DOBRO ( actually another corporate name Original Musical Instrument Corp or similar) and tanked it.

DOBRO and NATIONAL and REGAL (all makers of resonator guitars)

The current NATIONAL company makes Stte bosied, brass bodied , German Steel and wood.

Anything other than a DOBRO is known as a TIFKAD.. or the instrument formerly known as Dobro..

There are many fine upscale makers such as Scheerhorn and Beard etc..

But there is currently  no DOBRO

Now let's draw a parallel with solid timber and laminated/plywood chassis on TIFKADs and melodeons.  Just as there is with boxes  there are two camps in TIFKAD production. ... one says the soundboard/and chassis is nothing but a speaker chamber and champion plies, , others swear my massif/solid wood.

I have my own ideas..


Logged

Lester

  • MADman
  • Mods and volunteers
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9109
  • Hohners'R'me
    • Lester's Melodeon Emporium and Tune-a-Rama
Re: Another soundboardesque question
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2017, 10:03:40 PM »

....."either wood with steel resonator, often called dobro, or an entirely steel resonator guitar."""
<snipped waffle>

Dobro is the generic term for resonator guitars in the same way hoover is the generic term for a vacuum cleaner.

melodeon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1732
Re: Another soundboardesque question
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2017, 11:05:16 PM »

"Dobro is the generic term for resonator guitars..."

Not by those who play them or are familiar  with them.  Specifically a NATIONAL reso.. that would be sacrilege.
Only a DOBRO is a DOBRO.

... "in the same way Hoover is the generic term for a vacuum cleaner."

Not once  have I ever called a vacuum cleaner a "Hoover" if it isn't,  nor have I heard anyone else  call a vacuum cleaner a "Hoover" if it wasn't.  Must be an Ammurican thing. .

Dobros and Hoovers do have one thing  in common.. neither is considered top of the line for a resonator.  However some swear by both. I am happy for them.

However, I will agree with your statement...in total...  neither being a correct relationship to the other. . 

Yer welcome : ) from  a long time reso player and builder.  I owned one of the last DOBRO made DOBROS (before Gibson killed them off)   bought directly from them.. it was a NAMM show display unit... all padauk.

Also John Dopyra, the principal designer and owner of DOBRO,  lived just 20 minutes away from me in Grants Pass, Oregon and  owned a music store. A few of his family live nearby including his grand daughter.  I have attended music gatherings at their home and at a local pub.

FYI




Logged

playandteach

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3521
  • Currently a music teacher in a high school.
Re: Another soundboardesque question
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2017, 11:37:38 PM »

Hoovering is the generic term in the uk for vacuuming the carpets. I'm sure that Hoover are delighted to have their name used in that way.
Sellotape
Frisbee
Jacuzzi
I have heard Dobro used in the same way. I don't know how they'd feel about it.

With the grille issue - I have surprisingly found more difference with the removal of a metal grille on a Hohner than the removal of a wooden grille on my Sander or R2D2. Those two really don't sound 'unmuffled' when it's off, but the Hohner did sound cleaner without it.
On the other hand the Hohner is held loosely in place with the round hooks, and the Serafini is a firmer fit. The Sander grille just doesn't seem to really be in the way at all acoustically.
Logged
Serafini R2D2 GC, Serafini GC accs 18 bass

Nick Collis Bird

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3785
  • Been squeezing melodeons for over 48 years (badly)
Re: Another soundboardesque question
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2017, 06:26:27 AM »

And don’t forget Biro for ballpoint and fridge for fridigaire. But I digress.
Logged
Has anyone heard of the song. “ Broken Alarm-clock Blues” ? It starts   “I woke up this Afternoon”

Chris Rayner

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 467
Re: Another soundboardesque question
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2017, 08:39:02 AM »


Not once  have I ever called a vacuum cleaner a "Hoover" if it isn't,  nor have I heard anyone else  call a vacuum cleaner a "Hoover" if it wasn't.  Must be an Ammurican thing. .


The use of the terms hoover and hoovering is widespread in the UK.  To the extent that it was incorporated in Alan Bennett’s play Habeas Corpus in the seventies.  No doubt other literary references may be found.
Logged
Elderly amateur musician hoping to stave off dementia by learning to play the melodeon.  Main instrument a Tommy, also D/G and G/C pokerworks,  a single row 2 stop Hohner, and a new addition to the free reedery, a rather splendid Paolo Soprani four voice 120 bass c-system chromatic button accordion.  Very shiny, very loud, and about the same size and weight as a small car.  Now I’ve traded me Benny with (ahem) a cash adjustment, to a three voice 60 bass Castagnari K3.

911377brian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1518
Re: Another soundboardesque question
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2017, 11:52:25 AM »

I’ve heard Lester play 114’s with and without the grill. Without sounds better. Don’t ask me what the difference is, it just sounds better.
Logged

boxcall

  • You got to love it!!!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1755
  • Accordion to who?
Re: Another soundboardesque question
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2017, 01:07:23 PM »

And don’t forget Biro for ballpoint and fridge for fridigaire. But I digress.
Skillsaw, crescent wrench,etc.

Not once  have I ever called a vacuum cleaner a "Hoover" if it isn't,  nor have I heard anyone else  call a vacuum cleaner a "Hoover" if it wasn't.  Must be an Ammurican thing. .


The use of the terms hoover and hoovering is widespread in the UK.  To the extent that it was incorporated in Alan Bennett’s play Habeas Corpus in the seventies.  No doubt other literary references may be found.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Hoovering&utm_source=search-action
Here's a couple more meanings:)

I call it a vacuum
Which has it's share of meanings
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=vacuum
Both seem to have a lot of sexual meanings. But then this is the urban dictionary.
More drifting, sorry

I play my boxes with grill on, except the beltuna doesn't have one and my Baldoni I took it off so I could hear the clacking better (:)
Logged
Hohner 1040 C, Beltuna one row four stop D, O'Byrne Dewitt/ Baldoni bros. D/C#, Paolo soprani "pepperpot" one row D

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Another soundboardesque question
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2017, 01:47:44 PM »

Materials will influence the sound an instrument makes.  It’s physics.
The absorption's a property of the surface hardness, not of how it vibrates.

As ever, little science on this issue, and even less "experiment". I had to learn the physics of sound to be a Radiologist. We were taught that the % of sound reflected at an interface is proportional to the difference of the squares of the accoustic impedances. Wood, a solid has low impedance. air, remarkably has high impedance (it transmits poorly). While this is counter intuitive … think of the old cowboy trick of listening for hoof sounds in the ground, or the ringing of welded rail track, long before a train arrives?

What isn't reflected passes across. "Hardness" has little to do with it. Water a good conductor of sound … think whale song.

So massive reflection at most melodeon mechanical interfaces. The reeds essentially "push" the air to produce a pressure wave, and a very directional one. I suspect the most important property of a fondo is its mass, but on my better instruments I can feel the vibrations, even in the wood of the keyboard.

A quick google shows sound reflection to be massively more complicated. This link is NOT for the faint hearted! Beyond this, there are relaxation effects (absorption of the energy) and matters of phase of the vibration it there are more than one reed!

I remain convinced that the best way to look at this is empyricism. Real experiment on different media and setups, with decent quality sensors. No one ever gets round to this, and "theory" seems to produce a thousand different opinions.
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

melodeon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1732
Re: Another soundboardesque question
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2017, 02:38:56 PM »

Here in USA.. to "hoover" is close to meaning to "bogart"  or to "scarf"..
Which has ZIp all to do with DOBRO being a generic term for resonator guitar, it simply isn't.. at least in the world of those who use and play and are familiar with them.

Vacuum cleaners may be different as are XEROX and SCOTCH TAPE. owing to their universal usage (again no one ever in my time on earth have I or anyone else used HOOVER as the common term for a vacuum cleaner) . DOBROs are not in the realm of universal usage.  UK may be different with your Sellotape, whatever that is.  I'll assume a sticky transparent tape usually in a dispenser and approx 1/2-3/4 inch.....13mm-19mm wide.

My experience is that when resonator guitar makers use solid woods, they also are known to combine this with variances in the chambers and sound reflectors.  Those that use laminated materials often you conventional interior components and stick to the original shapes and sizes.  These are generalizations, but common.

My world says solid tops and laminated backs and sides and modified sound wells.

Were I to go back and make  melodeons.. I would strongly consider laminates for the chassis , likely making my own.
Solid/massif materials elsewhere; rigidity, weight, durability  and airtight being the objective.
Logged

Lester

  • MADman
  • Mods and volunteers
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9109
  • Hohners'R'me
    • Lester's Melodeon Emporium and Tune-a-Rama
Re: Another soundboardesque question
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2017, 02:41:43 PM »

Which has ZIp all to do with DOBRO being a generic term for resonator guitar, it simply isn't.. at least in the world of those who use and play and are familiar with them.

I offer you the first line of the Wikipedia page for Dobro

The word Dobro is, in popular usage, the generic term for a wood-bodied, single cone resonator guitar.

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Another soundboardesque question
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2017, 03:13:28 PM »

My 2000/01 build Oakwood was made largely of laminates, and played "sweet as a nut".

Are the recent ones made the same way, and as pleasant to the ear?
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Lester

  • MADman
  • Mods and volunteers
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9109
  • Hohners'R'me
    • Lester's Melodeon Emporium and Tune-a-Rama
Re: Another soundboardesque question
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2017, 03:36:42 PM »

Are the recent ones made the same way, and as pleasant to the ear?

No and 'pleasant' is in the ear of the beholder

melodeon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1732
Re: Another soundboardesque question
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2017, 07:38:18 PM »

"I offer you the first line of the Wikipedia page for Dobro
The word Dobro is, in popular usage, the generic term for a wood-bodied, single cone resonator guitar."

But not what you posted.... which was.....

"Dobro is the generic term for resonator guitars"
This says nothing about wood bodied single cone.. which defines DOBRO and not resonator guitars.

Please note, and I will repeat,  for those who own or play or have any experience with resonator instruments, DOBRO is not a generic name for  resonator instruments.

But, of course, Wikipedia is the definitive resource for all information particularly considering it is the INTERNET.

We have a choice to understand the that DOBRO is not the universal word for resonator instruments or choose to be a part of the ignorant masses and believe that it does.

Have  a nice day : )


BTW I build REGAL pattern wood bodied resonator guitars which are called copies of Regal, or Regal patterned, and not DOBRO.
If I had the wherewithal I would post a series of about 50 photos I have taken of one of my builds whose design ripped off from a genuine pre war REGAL.. not a DOBRO.
Logged

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13729
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Another soundboardesque question
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2017, 07:47:59 PM »

[[ADMIN]]

We are well outside melodeon territory here so this topic is now closed.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal