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Author Topic: Delfini 1940's 3-voice button box  (Read 14511 times)

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triskel

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Re: Delfini button box
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2017, 11:10:26 PM »

........ the sound and the weight said it was 3-voice before I even got the end off it, but the proof is in my first photo - whilst the next two are to show how it's roughly the same size as my 3-voice D/D# Paolo Soprani.

It looks to be a wee bit bigger than the Paolo....heavier also I pressume?

In my second photo (the first of the two together) they look the same size (which is correct), but the perspective in the third one makes the Delfini (which is slightly closer to the camera) look larger than it is. The actual heights (sitting on their feet) are Delfini 13 1/8", and Paolo 13 1/4", the bellows frame sizes are the same on both at 12 3/16" x 7".

The Paolo is 1lb heavier at 9.2 lbs, the Delfini weighs in at only 8.2 lbs.

Does it sound anything like a Paolo?

I suppose the answer to that might best be "Which Paolo, in what tuning?" But it certainly has a good Italian sound, and I'd say it would "sing like a grey" with MMM reeds and a good measure of tremolo like my (factory tuned) D/D# has... >:E

.. the wooden treble mechanism (which is, mercifully, all working  :Ph).

What's the action like?

Surprisingly good. The springs are perhaps a touch stiffer than the ones on the D/D#, but there's precious little in it - whilst some people (like Charlie Harris) like very strong springs (so the keys "snap" shut) and would consider mine too light anyway (though that doesn't stop him from borrowing the D/D# for a few tunes with Des Mulkere ;)).

I certainly wouldn't complain about either of them myself.

triskel

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Re: Delfini button box
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2017, 02:54:48 AM »

... it's roughly the same size as my 3-voice D/D# Paolo Soprani.

It looks to be a wee bit bigger than the Paolo ...

I've taken a better photo, with both boxes more end-on to the camera, so you can see there's not really anything in it, size-wise:

pgroff

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Re: Delfini button box
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2017, 05:27:20 PM »

.. the wooden treble mechanism (which is, mercifully, all working  :Ph).

What's the action like?

Surprisingly good. The springs are perhaps a touch stiffer than the ones on the D/D#, but there's precious little in it - whilst some people (like Charlie Harris) like very strong springs (so the keys "snap" shut) and would consider mine too light anyway (though that doesn't stop him from borrowing the D/D# for a few tunes with Des Mulkere ;)).

I certainly wouldn't complain about either of them myself.

Speaking of spring tension, triskel, here's a somewhat OT question: did you find the springs too light on your black IAMC 1-row D Paolo?  My red one (that I traded for recently) has springs that are exceptionally soft, but mine had been modified in some ways and yours was all-original when you got it. Just curious to know if the spring tension on mine was set so low from the factory. If so, did you ask to have the springs adjusted (or replaced with thicker gauge) when you had yours re-waxed?

Back to the Delfini, again it looks like a great box. I like the wooden action when it's well made and in good condition. Maybe a couple tiny holes among the pallets that should be treated?

PG
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 05:30:07 PM by pgroff »
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triskel

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Re: Delfini button box
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2017, 07:19:25 PM »

Speaking of spring tension ... did you find the springs too light on your black IAMC 1-row D Paolo?  My red one (that I traded for recently) has springs that are exceptionally soft, but mine had been modified in some ways and yours was all-original when you got it. Just curious to know if the spring tension on mine was set so low from the factory.

The springs were delightfully light in mine when it arrived from Chicago Paul, but perfectly adequate for the job with those small pallets. I felt absolutely no urge to make them any different.

For that matter, I went for "minimal interference" (seeing that the box was in such "time-capsule" condition) and only waxed in the reeds that were already loose, it hasn't been rewaxed, nor has it been revalved - but it sounds and plays great!  :D

Quote
Back to the Delfini, again it looks like a great box. I like the wooden action when it's well made and in good condition. Maybe a couple tiny holes among the pallets that should be treated?

I hope the Delfini will turn out to be the 3-voice box I've been looking for. As far as I can see, so far, there are three suspect little holes in the soundboard, but they've been there quite a while by the look of them...

pgroff

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Re: Delfini button box
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2017, 07:37:55 PM »



The springs were delightfully light in mine when it arrived from Chicago Paul, but perfectly adequate for the job with those small pallets. I felt absolutely no urge to make them any different.

For that matter, I went for "minimal interference" (seeing that the box was in such "time-capsule" condition) and only waxed in the reeds that were already loose, it hasn't been rewaxed, nor has it been revalved - but it sounds and plays great!  :D


I would have preferred to get mine in original condition too, but mine had already been tweaked when I took it in trade. Still a very nice box. The springs in mine are sufficient to keep the pallets airtight on the press, but would give a snappier return and would play cleaner ornaments at high speed if they were higher tension. I also find that I like to have the spring pressure comparable to the force needed to change bellows direction, and with this box the springs are lighter than the action of the (new condition) bellows.

boxcall told me the springs of his NOS example were very light when his arrived, so together with your experience I'm gathering that the light springing of mine is probably original condition. Still might beef them up.

Congratulations again on that Delfini!

PG
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hickory-wind

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Re: Delfini button box
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2017, 09:31:36 PM »

Thread drift...
Paul- Your PS Pepperpot springs were factory. I've had two. They were at the bottom of my key force chart along with a Peter Hyde box. Note that Castagnari Max has has its spring force increased significantly over the years. I've measured 120, 140 on older boxes and then 200 gm on a recent one.

Scott

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« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 09:45:06 PM by hickory-wind »
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Pearse Rossa

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Re: Delfini button box
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2017, 02:51:02 AM »

Does it sound anything like a Paolo?
I suppose the answer to that might best be "Which Paolo, in what tuning?" But it certainly has a good Italian sound, and I'd say it would "sing like a grey" with MMM reeds and a good measure of tremolo like my (factory tuned) D/D# has... >:E

I guess it's a long shot that the reed blocks might be interchangeable?
It would be an interesting experiment to see what the D/D# reeds sound like in the Delfini.
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pgroff

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Re: Delfini button box
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2017, 11:34:00 AM »

Thread drift...
Paul- Your PS Pepperpot springs were factory. I've had two. They were at the bottom of my key force chart along with a Peter Hyde box. Note that Castagnari Max has has its spring force increased significantly over the years. I've measured 120, 140 on older boxes and then 200 gm on a recent one.

Scott

BellingersButtonBoxes.com

Hi hickory wind,

I  agree that the springs on the 1 - row unlabeled Paolo are among the lightest I've played, and far lighter than my other Paolos.  That set-up might make for a solution for some of the older players I've known who are on the brink of giving up the instrument as they lose finger strength. But for myself, when playing fast crisp  ornamented dance music, my subjective impression is that very soft spring tension seems to affect the key return time (time for the pallets to close after releasing the button) - for both button accordions and for concertinas, and even when the action is set up to have minimal friction. This effect may mostly be an interaction with the way that fingers work, and may not show up when the button action is measured with a gauge. I.e., it may be that the action of our fingers themselves can benefit from that feedback of stiff springing when trying to hit and release a button incredibly rapidly. But I definitely notice that light springs can make crisp articulation more challenging at a very fine time scale, so it was interesting to see triskel mention the general issue of spring tension above, in reference to the Delfini box and Charlie Harris' set-up preferences.

PG
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triskel

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Re: Delfini button box
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2017, 03:24:09 PM »

I guess it's a long shot that the reed blocks might be interchangeable?
It would be an interesting experiment to see what the D/D# reeds sound like in the Delfini.

'Twould, and both the length and the width of the sole plates are the same, but then you hit two major snags in that the tongues on the ends of the  Paolo Soprani reed blocks are about 1/10" too high to slot in on the the Delfini, plus the button spacing (and hence the soundboard hole spacing) is smaller on the 1960's Paolo Sopranis (and got smaller again later), whilst the Delfini is spaced more like an older (grey or red) Paolo - so the square holes in the Paolo reedblock wouldn't line up too well with the round ones in the Delfini soundboard anyway.  :(

fiddleboxdavey

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Re: Delfini button box
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2017, 08:23:10 PM »

I have the very same black 3 voice Delfini as this. I had it retuned to C#/D from the original C/C# by John Crawford a few years ago. The springs are heavy, certainly too heavy for playing for 4 hours of dancing so I use it sparingly. Nice strong sound though. My pal has the two voice version of this Delfini but in B/C, also restored by John Crawford a good few years ago. The reeds are incredibly responsive and loud in that box. The springs on the treble side are a lot lighter however and it is lovely to play. It plays and sounds very similarly to a 1950s 2 voice grey Busilacchio that I have. Incidentally, the treble side spring tension is heavy on the Busilacchio too!
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triskel

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Re: Delfini button box
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2017, 08:42:02 PM »

I have the very same black 3 voice Delfini as this. I had it retuned to C#/D from the original C/C# by John Crawford a few years ago. The springs are heavy, certainly too heavy for playing for 4 hours of dancing so I use it sparingly. Nice strong sound though. My pal has the two voice version of this Delfini but in B/C, also restored by John Crawford a good few years ago. The reeds are incredibly responsive and loud in that box. The springs on the treble side are a lot lighter however and it is lovely to play. It plays and sounds very similarly to a 1950s 2 voice grey Busilacchio that I have. Incidentally, the treble side spring tension is heavy on the Busilacchio too!

That's good to hear - I've never seen one before, and neither has anybody else I know. Is/was yours also LMM (like mine is at the moment), or maybe MMM?

Mind you, I think the Fipaccordion must be even rarer - and I'm waiting to get the invoice for that one tonight too. ;)  (It's like buses, you don't see one for ages and then along comes a bunch of them!  ::))

fiddleboxdavey

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Re: Delfini button box
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2017, 10:10:46 PM »

My 3 voice Delfini is MMM. Nice quality old reeds. I was lucky as the box is in great condition inside and out. I must admit that the spring tension puts me off playing it unfortunately. Would it be possible to change the springs? Would it be a horrible job to attempt?

I'm a violin restorer to trade and am just starting out down the melodeon-fettling road after years of thinking about it. I've lots of boxes here that I have collected over the years that need varying amounts of work, so I'm going to start on an old 23 button Scandalli badged box. It's in great nick and I'll need to change all the reeds to fit a set of C#/D reeds I bought from Charlie Marshall. It plays very nicely. I was quite impressed with how it played as is.

I'm actually off to see a pal tomorrow for a lesson on the finer points of reed-replacement etc! How difficult can it be....?!
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fiddleboxdavey

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Re: Delfini button box
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2017, 10:15:53 PM »

I really liked the look of your Fipaccordion. I had to get the wife to tie my hands behind my back or I would have bid on it.
She came out with the immortal words the other morning- 'Do you not think you have enough accordions now?'
Haha. Silly wife....
My response- 'Do you not think you have enough shoes now?'
Haha. Silly husband....
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Pearse Rossa

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Re: Delfini button box
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2017, 10:39:51 PM »

My 3 voice Delfini is MMM. Nice quality old reeds. I was lucky as the box is in great condition inside and out. I must admit that the spring tension puts me off playing it unfortunately. Would it be possible to change the springs? Would it be a horrible job to attempt?

It is possible to change them. It might not be necessary to change them, but rather adjust them.
It should not be a major task.
I have done it on a few boxes, including a Busilacchio that was almost unplayable beforehand.
It made a huge difference.
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playandteach

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Re: Delfini button box
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2017, 10:44:54 PM »

I couldn't get the old Erika left hand to work for me, I think that if I'd had springs light enough to use then perhaps the pallet seal won't have been effective - I think it is down to poor leverage in that model (the upright arm seems way too short, but that would be a problem to change - needing the left hand end box rebuilding).
On the other hand if it's just the springs...
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triskel

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Re: Delfini button box
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2017, 11:00:59 PM »

Would it be possible to change the springs? Would it be a horrible job to attempt?

I just opened mine up and, as I suspected, it would be made all the trickier by the design of the box - seeing that there's no access to the springs because of the wooden action, and there's no backplate to take off to get at them either.

I reckon you'd need to pull out the keyboard axle to do anything with the springs...  :(

Fortunately they're nice and light on mine.

Pearse Rossa

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Re: Delfini button box
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2017, 11:09:45 PM »

Would it be possible to change the springs? Would it be a horrible job to attempt?

I reckon you'd need to pull out the keyboard axle to do anything with the springs...  :(

That would be the case with a lot of boxes. Besides, I think it's preferable to remove the springs
when making adjustments. It's easier to get it more precise.
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triskel

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Re: Delfini button box
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2017, 12:42:52 AM »


I reckon you'd need to pull out the keyboard axle to do anything with the springs...  :(

That would be the case with a lot of boxes. Besides, I think it's preferable to remove the springs
when making adjustments. It's easier to get it more precise.

Yes, but it's always more of an issue with a wooden action, like these have...

triskel

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Re: Delfini 1940's 3-voice button box
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2017, 02:31:03 AM »

I've already written of Casali ... and Alvari as being house brands of the London wholesalers J. E. Dallas & Sons, and their other one was Delfini, which (in the 1930s) they applied to piano accordions built for them by Italian manufacturers. Evidently they also put that name onto some Italian button boxes in the immediate post-war years, because I bought (a probably late-1940's, 3-voice) one a few days ago: Delfini Loreto Italia Small Accordion

And so (of course! ::)) I've since come across a photo of a pre-war Delfini B/C/C# in the "Gallery" on the Button Box Forum, and its associated eBay listing: Delfini button accordion - 6 voice in B C C sharp 80 base. Art Deco 1930
.
That one is in my first photo.

But, construction-wise, such boxes usually have far more to do with 3-row CBAs (with diatonic reedplates installed instead of chromatic ones), rather than being "diatonic accordions" per se.

Interestingly, the eBay listing mentions that the reed blocks 'are stamped  "Made by Bontempi in Castelfidardo" ' (if only they all did that!) - a firm that was active from 1936 to 1952.

At first I thought the Delfini was probably made by Busillachio but, having studied various photos, I'm now leaning towards Orfeo.

Only, I've still not found any evidence that Orfeo actually made diatonic accordions (other than British Chromatic ones with Stradella basses), whilst I've come to realise that the bass reed set-up in my late 1940's black Delfini (second photo) is very much as Busilacchio (still?) did it in later instruments... (third photo).

So the balance of probabilities seems to have switched back to it being a very early Busilacchio.

pgroff

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Re: Delfini 1940's 3-voice button box
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2017, 09:00:02 AM »


And so (of course! ::)) I've since come across a photo of a pre-war Delfini B/C/C# in the "Gallery" on the Button Box Forum, and its associated eBay listing: Delfini button accordion - 6 voice in B C C sharp 80 base. Art Deco 1930
.
That one is in my first photo.

But, construction-wise, such boxes usually have far more to do with 3-row CBAs (with diatonic reedplates installed instead of chromatic ones), rather than being "diatonic accordions" per se.

Interestingly, the eBay listing mentions that the reed blocks 'are stamped  "Made by Bontempi in Castelfidardo" ' (if only they all did that!) - a firm that was active from 1936 to 1952.

At first I thought the Delfini was probably made by Busillachio but, having studied various photos, I'm now leaning towards Orfeo.

Only, I've still not found any evidence that Orfeo actually made diatonic accordions (other than British Chromatic ones with Stradella basses), whist I've come to realise that the bass reed set-up in my late 1940's black Delfini (second photo) is very much as Busilacchio (still?) did it in later instruments... (third photo).

So the balance of probabilities seems to have switched back to it being a very early Busilacchio.

Hi triskel,

I remember seeing the auction for that Delfini BCC#, and mentioning it to Eamon Flynn. I don't think I saved the auction photos, but maybe he did. Going from memory here (so I may be wrong), I'm still pretty sure this box was not 6 voice (on the melody side).

Maybe it had 3 melody reedblocks, thus 6 rows of melody reedplates in total visible for the entire instrument when you open it up. But those 6 rows would need to be divided by the number of rows of pallets on the soundboard.  In that case this box might be 2 voice (if there are 3 rows of pallets on the soundboard) . . . but more likely 3 voice, with the pallets from the 3 rows of buttons mixed into 2 rows of pallets on the soundboard.

Or, if the box has 6 melody reedblocks (12 rows of reedplates total), it could be a 4 voice box if there are 3 rows of pallets on the soundboard, or a 6 voice box if there are 2 rows of pallets on the soundboard.  But again, my memory is that the "6 voice claim" was incorrect.

In any case, it looked like a really interesting instrument.

Did someone on the buttonbox forum buy it?

Re: bass/chord reedblocks in Busilacchios: even among the 2 row models that are very similar externally, these can have different bass reed layouts. But I think I have an example similar to the one that you illustrate for your Delfini. When things settle down here I'll try to add pics.

PG
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 02:05:12 PM by pgroff »
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