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[Chris Brimley]

Again Bob - an impressive and useful skill to have developed.  Yes, I suppose I can certainly 'hear' intervals internally, as it were, and could have some sort of stab, given the first note, of imagining where the second one will be on the box, which perhaps helps with rehearsing.  However for me it's nowhere near reliable enough to use while performing - do you use it at that stage, at all?

[george garside]

I probably unconsciously do something on the lines that Bob says but without any   thought about intervals or third fifths sixths etc.

I see the instrument as simply a machine that if operated in a certain way will reproduce the sounds that  I am 'singing' or 'thinking' in the head so to speak.  Rather like the gob is operated when singing!

 george

[Tone Dumb Greg]

Learning to recognise intervals and practising them to keep the recognition current is central to how I learn tunes by ear...

I remember when I was a child, learning piano,  that interval recognition and singing was one of the compulsory tests. Given that I am extremely tone dumb, this was a sore trial. Probably the main reason I never got past grade 5.

Test yourself http://tonedear.com/ear-training/intervals

[Chris Ryall]

I am about halfway "ear trained" and can generally be aware of the "colour" notes in the present active chord - classically third and 7th. 9th is very important in blues and jazz

When you improvise, a technique is to target these notes, thinking adead by about 1 bar. The "journey" is then whatever you like, ending on a note adjacent to the target … and as the chord changes … that … magic resolution 😉

Things like "altered scale" achieve this automatically, so are prevalent in jazz. I do my best, and improvising "is" a performance. Though others might differ! 🤔

I recall Pignol's advice never to end on a tonic! Well I was headed there playing out "nobody loves you" in Chalap, remembered just in time and managed to get to a #4. But there was a little gap. The whole room had a good laugh, they'd been there too

[Chris Brimley]

Actually, Chris, having heard you play along with a tune and improvising, I would say you are the only person I have heard play the box who I would say is definitely thinking in intervals between notes as a practical aid to performing!  Whether it's something you would want to do generally as a performer, I wasn't sure.  Is it something you'd feel comfortable with in any key, or just the box home keys?

[playandteach]

Somebody wrote that they thought that playing scales was of little value because all it teaches you is how to play scales. However, that depends on the purpose for which you are playing scales. I use scales to train my ear to recognise intervals. I play the scales very slowly and play a pedal note (i.e. the tonic) in between each note of the scale whilst saying to myself 'fifth', 'third', 'sixth' or whatever the interval is.

And I used scales to focus on sound quality, quality of attack, smoothness of change, micro-movements, intonation. They are unfortunately identified as a grade requirement to prove you know what the notes are, when they are actually mirrors of your full range of technical and musical skills - if we accept that phrasing is a musical application of tonal control.

[george garside]

I am   starting to wonder how I ever managed to achieve a half decent playing standard without knowing anything whatsoever about a great deal of stuff in this thread!  Same goes for others far higher up the pile  than me.
I also wonder  if seemingly ever increasing attempts  to''classicalify'' traditional music  will eventually  turn it into something that is neither fish, flesh or fowl!

george  (ducking for cover!)

[playandteach]

I'm not saying that you have to practise that way, but that it is a fine way of taking control of your progress. Plenty of players are instinctive and build enough technique to get the music across. But there's no shame in working at it. It seems almost inverse snobbery (this is a written post where nuances are lost and I mean no harm here) to say I've never needed to work at it.

[Thrupenny Bit]

Driving home one afternoon, listening to Radio 4, I heard a lady who had gone through the Yehudi Menhuin school of music and I think was now a concert violinist.
As a young thing she'd get up at 7am and have an hour of a tutor playing a note at her ( on the piano? ) and she had to identify the note. Then breakfast and on to other aspects and lectures as part of the daily music school life.
Message being - to be able to identify ( or for us mere mortals get close to ) a played note is a valuable tool in the armoury, especially if you learn by ear. It also gives you an ability to improvise over the player as you are aware of what they are playing so you can work around it.
Q

[Tone Dumb Greg]

...As a young thing she'd get up at 7am and have an hour of a tutor playing a note at her ( on the piano? ) and she had to identify the note. Then breakfast and on to other aspects and lectures as part of the daily music school life...

Maybe this is why I think folk musicians are generally more interesting to listen to than classical musicians. They don't usually do this sort of stuff.

[Chris Ryall]

Actually, Chris, having heard you play along with a tune and improvising, I would say you are the only person I have heard play the box who I would say is definitely thinking in intervals between notes as a practical aid to performing!  Whether it's something you would want to do generally as a performer, I wasn't sure.  Is it something you'd feel comfortable with in any key, or just the box home keys?

Very kind. Not all keys, basically the ones I have practiced up. eg my box does not like Ab! The impro course will commonly play in Gm or Cm, F or Bb, so it isn't row keys. Except that my outer Db row, while used for accidentals, greatly facilitated such stuff on the pull.

The more off piste the key the less I think intervals.  Need to practice more!

[Thrupenny Bit]

Greg: it came over as she needed to have a basic knowledge of notes and intervals as a fundamental concept before other knowledge is put on top.
From Bob's description earlier in the thread, he practices along similar lines, working out intervals. I've never had the pleasure of listening to Chris R play but it sounds like this is built into his ability to improvise.
If someone plays a tune at a session and I try and join in, I hope I can put my fingers on the buttons making some of that tune to enable me to get into it. Instead of a piano throwing random notes which I have to identify, it's a tune being played that I have to guess where it starts on my keyboard then identify the intervals they use to make the tune. I don't need to say what the notes are, merely press buttons to duplicate them.
To my mind that isn't a million miles away from the classical violinist and the piano previously mentioned surely?
Q

[Pete Dunk]

I also wonder  if seemingly ever increasing attempts  to''classicalify'' traditional music  will eventually  turn it into something that is neither fish, flesh or fowl!

Whenever I come across pieces of music that I would consider to be 'folk' or 'trad', that is to say simple dance tunes etc, being played by 'serious' musicians with a high degree of skill that comes from 'classical' training I am always delighted by the experience. Here's a video that demonstrates exactly what I mean, the broad smiles show how much pleasure the musicians get from playing a delightful 24 bar tune to a very high standard.

The Downshire, Camperdown, Quickstep

Save

[Pete Dunk]

I'm forgetting that the tune in the post above is actually only sixteen bars long played ABA to make 24 bars. If anyone is interested here's my abc transcription from a scan of the original.

Code: [Select]

X:49
T:Downshire, Camperdown, Quick Step, The
M:C
L:1/8
%%titlefont Helvetica, 22
%%subtitlefont Helvetica,16
%%partsfont Arial, 20
%%partsbox
%%gchordfont Arial, 16
%%barnumbers 1
%%staves [1 2]
V:1 clef=treble
V:2 clef=bass
Q:1/4=95
Z:vmp.Peter Dunk 2017
K:D
V:1
A/G/|{G}F[DD,][DD,][DD,] D/E/F/G/ Ad|{d}c[AC][AC][AC] A/B/c/d/ eg|\
!turn!fe/f/ (e/d/)c/d/ Bggf|[L:1/16](ef)ed (cd)cB (ed)cB (AG)FE|
%
F2DD D2D2 DEFG ABcd|{d}c2[AC][AC] [A2C2][A2C2] (AB)cd (ef)ge|\
[L:1/8]!turn!fe/f/ (e/d/)c/d/ Bggf|(e/f/)g/e/ !trill!dc [d2A2F2]D a/g/||
%
[fd][fd][fd][fd] f>g a/g/f/a/|{a}g[ec][ec][ec] [ec]>f (a/e/)d/c/|\
!turn!df/e/ (d/c/)B/A/ ^GBe>d|[L:1/16]ceBe Ae^Ge AeBe ceBe|
%
L:1/16
{d}ceBe Ae^Ge AeBe ceBe|dcde fefg agab afec|\
dcde fefg agab afec|dcdf edcB AdcB AGFE||
%
L:1/8
{G}F[DD,][DD,][DD,] D/E/F/G/ Ad|{d}c[AC][AC][AC] A/B/c/d/ eg|\
!turn!fe/f/ (e/d/)c/d/ Bggf|[L:1/16](ef)ed (cd)cB (ed)cB (AG)FE|
%
F2DD D2D2 DEFG ABcd|{d}c2[AC][AC] [A2C2][A2C2] (AB)cd (ef)ge|\
[L:1/8]!turn!fe/f/ (e/d/)c/d/ Bggf|(e/f/)g/e/ !trill!dc [d2A2F2] HD2|]
V:2
L:1/16
z2|D,,D,A,,D, D,,D,A,,D, D,,D,A,,D, D,,D,A,,D,|\
A,,A,E,A, A,,A,E,A, A,,A,E,A, A,,A,E,A,|\
D,A,F,A, A,,A,E,A, G,,D,B,,D, G,,G,D,G,|\
C,A,E,A, C,A,E,A, A,,A,E,A, A,,A,C,A,|
%
D,,D,A,,D, D,,D,A,,D, D,,D,A,,D, D,,D,A,,D,|\
A,,A,E,A, A,,A,E,A, A,,A,E,A, A,,A,E,A,|\
D,A,F,A, A,,A,E,A, G,,D,B,,D, G,,G,D,G,|\
C,A,E,A, F,G,A,A,, D,2A,,2D,,2z2||
%
DAFA DAFA DAFA DAFA|A,ECE A,ECE A,ECE A,ECE|\
[FD][FD][FD][EC] FDEC [^G,E,][G,E,][G,E,][G,E,] [G,E,][G,E,][G,E,][G,E,]|\
[EA,][EA,][EA,][EA,] [EA,][EA,][EA,][EA,]\
[EA,][EA,][EA,][EA,] [EA,][EA,][EA,][EA,]|
%
[EA,][EA,][EA,][EA,] [EA,][EA,][EA,][EA,]\
[EA,][EA,][EA,][EA,] [EA,][EA,][EA,][EA,]|\
[F,D,][F,D,][F,D,][F,D,] [F,D,][F,D,][F,D,][F,D,]\
A,B,A,G, [A,A,,][A,A,,][A,A,,][A,A,,]|\
[F,D,][F,D,][F,D,][F,D,] [F,D,][F,D,][F,D,][F,D,]\
A,B,A,G, [A,A,,][A,A,,][A,A,,][A,A,,]|\
[F,D,][F,D,][F,D,][F,D,] C,A,E,G, A,,A,E,A, A,,A,C,A,||
%
D,,D,A,,D, D,,D,A,,D, D,,D,A,,D, D,,D,A,,D,|\
A,,A,E,A, A,,A,E,A, A,,A,E,A, A,,A,E,A,|\
D,A,F,A, A,,A,E,A, G,,D,B,,D, G,,G,D,G,|\
C,A,E,A, C,A,E,A, A,,A,E,A, A,,A,C,A,|
%
D,,D,A,,D, D,,D,A,,D, D,,D,A,,D, D,,D,A,,D,|\
A,,A,E,A, A,,A,E,A, A,,A,E,A, A,,A,E,A,|\
D,A,F,A, A,,A,E,A, G,,D,B,,D, G,,G,D,G,|\
C,A,E,A, F,G,A,A,, D,2A,,2 HD,,4|]


[Winston Smith]

I have to admit to a certain amount of Philistinism, where serious (or classical) music is concerned. However, music is music, and it's played to be enjoyed by whosoever listens to it. Yes, we can all appreciate common people's music played by "high-brow" musicians, as we can also appreciate it the other way around. You should hear George Welch and Christine Jeans playing "serious" music on two ukuleles (or even guitar and banjo!) it's fab! The only problem is that a bit of snobbishness can sneak in, on either or both sides.

[Chris Brimley]

It looks like these musicians are in the other 'zone' of perfomance - they're playing directly from the score,  and interpreting as they go (very successfully).  It would be interesting to know how much time they'd spent rehearsing this before performing it, but possibly not much at all.

[Roger Howard]

Whenever I come across pieces of music that I would consider to be 'folk' or 'trad', that is to say simple dance tunes etc, being played by 'serious' musicians with a high degree of skill that comes from 'classical' training I am always delighted by the experience. Here's a video that demonstrates exactly what I mean, the broad smiles show how much pleasure the musicians get from playing a delightful 24 bar tune to a very high standard.

The Downshire, Camperdown, Quickstep

Save

Concerto Caledonia are a fabulous outfit - their cd "Nathaniel Gow's Dance Band" is an absolute trrrrreasure:

http://www.concal.org/albums/9-albums/1290-dance-band

No connection with them, but I love their music(ality). 

R

[AirTime]

It looks like these musicians are in the other 'zone' of perfomance - they're playing directly from the score,  and interpreting as they go (very successfully).  It would be interesting to know how much time they'd spent rehearsing this before performing it, but possibly not much at all.

Yes. That really is wonderful & if they are "playing directly from the score" it's very impressive & a great reminder of my own inadequacies.      However, it also reinforces the reality that with enough training human beings are capable of developing quite remarkable skills.

[Tone Dumb Greg]

Greg: it came over as she needed to have a basic knowledge of notes and intervals as a fundamental concept before other knowledge is put on top.

I think that what I am ascribing to good musician's innate sense of musicality is really the triumph of perspiration over inspiration in many cases. Maybe I should have put the effort in when I was younger.

I am planning to have a last ditch try at learning to play by ear, on the fly by going along to Jimmy's slow sessions and not using any dots. See how many tunes I can actually get right.

[Thrupenny Bit]

I think a combination of reading dots and learning by ear is the best way. Then you can hear if your dots you've read are making the right sound - that's what I do!
There are some great 'slow downer' apps available so you could start the learning process of 'how to learn by ear' in the safety of home.
I use 'Amazing slowdowner' on my ipad, it slows down a tune and can swap it between keys as well if you want. I slow down a tune to when I hear individual notes, listen to a few notes or phrase and then pick it out on the box. Keep going, repeat and commit to memory. It takes time but the more you do the quicker it gets as you recognise intervals etc.
If the Jimmy you refer to is the one I met in the spring at an Ollie King workshop, then wish him well from me, and I'd join you if it wasn't so far away!
Good luck with the learning.....
Q