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Author Topic: Performance Skills  (Read 30868 times)

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george garside

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #180 on: October 03, 2017, 10:20:49 AM »

speaking as a  simple  BCCsharpist  with 2 of everything in each octave exept G, D & A  I can only assume that my brain has been programmed as   to where the fingers need to go for one or t'other of the alternatives  and also to make auto pilot decisions  as to which one to choose depending on bellows opening and simplest fingering and combinations thereof.  I f I try to think consciously about which button to go for it all goes pear shaped!

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playandteach

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #181 on: October 03, 2017, 10:50:54 AM »

I don't think Jack plays the melodeon, if that is your question, Chris.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #182 on: October 03, 2017, 10:53:47 AM »


...it's a liability.  It constrains you in a similar way to perfect pitch...


I have not heard a musician describe perfect pitch as a constraint before, Jack. More the opposite. Luckily, it's not an issue that is liable to trouble me (:)
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Jack Campin

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #183 on: October 03, 2017, 12:22:57 PM »

Some people find perfect pitch means that if they've learned a tune in one key, that's they key it stays in forever in their heads.  Obviously, not everyone has that problem.

Birds are an extreme example.  They can't transpose at all and don't recognize pitch-shifted versions of their own songs.
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Jack Campin

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #184 on: October 03, 2017, 12:39:08 PM »

Quote
Jack, it does seem to me that you perhaps play music in a different way to most others, and it's certainly impressive - but one thing I don't understand about your technique - if you try not to use muscle memory, how do you cope with playing an instrument where there are so many different ways of playing the same notes?

Steve Dumpleton seems to think the same way I do and does the same sort of shifting between unrelated instruments, maybe he can comment.

All violinists have the same issue.  As a fiddler to play a tune an octave up and they can do it - none of the left hand fingers will be in the same place and most of the notes will be on different strings.  Ditto with a clarinet - go an octave up and it's as if you're playing in a different key (or maybe two different keys).  With the recorder, any player who uses different sizes (as anybody at all serious about it will) uses different fingerings for the same note on each - it isn't a transposing instrument.

This is an absolutely routine technique in traditional instrumental music.  Most people who play Scottish fiddle can also play the whistle, and all pipers can; doubling between fiddle/pipes/accordion/whistle is perfectly normal.  Most people who do that will have some tunes they can only play on one instrument, others where one works better, others where it makes no difference.

Learning the elements of melodic patterns - scales and arpeggios in different keys - is where the muscle memory comes in.  Learn how to play an ascending major scale from the tonic and you've got most of what you need to know to play the Barrowburn Reel.  It's normally in D but if you've got other keys under your fingers you can play it in G or A with very little thought.  You don't need to remember motor patterns specific to that tune.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 12:44:30 PM by Jack Campin »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #185 on: October 03, 2017, 02:32:09 PM »

All is relative for me. Several songs I might do in C or Bb depending on what "mood" I and my vocal chords are in that day. I play a C#DG box, 18 bass and both keys are fairly fluent (especially chording for song).

They do however "sound and feel" rather different :|glug
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #186 on: October 03, 2017, 02:34:07 PM »


...it's a liability.  It constrains you in a similar way to perfect pitch...


I have not heard a musician describe perfect pitch as a constraint before, Jack. More the opposite. Luckily, it's not an issue that is liable to trouble me (:)

I knew a woodwind player who initially started on the clarinet, but was never comfortable with it. After a couple of years he switched to the flute and became very good. It turned out he had perfect pitch and during the course of struggling with the clarinet, he realised that he was constantly having a conflict reading a written note, his brain telling him how the pitch ought to sound, and yet the clarinet giving him a different pitch (it being a transposing instrument and sounding one tone lower than written). It didn't make it impossible for him, but I guess it was always something of a handicap. Once he'd changed to the flute (a non-transposing instrument: what you see on the page is what you get in sound), he progressed rapidly and became a really good flautist.

Steve Dumpleton seems to think the same way I do and does the same sort of shifting between unrelated instruments, maybe he can comment.

I'm basically a woodwind player, not a melodeon player at all!  ;)

The 'shifting between unrelated instruments' which I do is actually shifting between closely related instruments, e.g. whistle, clarinet, saxophone, flute, etc. I found at a very early age (9 years) when learning to play the recorder that I could knock out a tune which I knew in my head without any need for written music; my brain and fingers just seem to work well together on this sort of instrument. Give me a tube with some finger holes in it and I can play it one way or another. There's actually not a lot of difference in the basic fingering techniques of any woodwind instrument. Obviously that is a big generalisation and there are some fingering details specific to individual instruments, and of course the blowing and tone production is another matter again, but hopefully you get the idea.

I had violin lessons for a year but never really got comfortable with it and gave it up; I used to joke that it was because I never found out where you were supposed to blow it. Flippant perhaps, but just another illustration of how me and instruments interact.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #187 on: October 03, 2017, 05:55:14 PM »

Oh. Perhaps I need to step back a step or two.

First, playing a single-line melody instrument, where in general there's only one way of playing a given note, is obviously entirely different to playing a 2+acc multi-bass box, or a BCC# stradella bass box, and I'm not sure that lessons learned on a single-note instrument are actually going to translate at all to the problems we box-players have when performing.  Sorry, Jack, the difficulties for us are that playing a melody and accompaniment on our chosen instrument is actually a different and unfortunately highly complex task, and I'm afraid to my mind developing muscle memory skill is absolutely essential to successful performance because of these issues.

Second, I'm somewhat surprised that a flute, with its really difficult unstable intonation problems, should be the chosen instrument for someone with perfect pitch.  I played with a flautist for many years, and this was a really serious problem for her, unless playing at full volume.  I know that it is possible to develop over-blowing technique to correct the issue, but we found it really difficult in music where soft playing was required.  A free reed instrument is by its nature highly pitch-stable, whereas a flute is often miles out!

And third, a violin is 'isomorphic', because of the constant relationship between strings.  Therefore, patterns of fingering will no doubt repeat, as they do on a bass guitar, and largely on a guitar too.

 
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 05:58:23 PM by Chris Brimley »
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playandteach

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #188 on: October 03, 2017, 06:15:24 PM »

Chris, there really isn't any real problem playing a flute in tune. Much less even than for a clarinet. And intonationis unpalatable for those of us without perfect pitch.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #189 on: October 03, 2017, 06:25:58 PM »

p&t, how's it done?  I never knew how to sort it out - my friend used to warm up the flute by blowing into it, continually adjust the tuning adjuster to reach a compromise, but whatever she did, it went significantly flat when played quietly.  And it was a good instrument!
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Jack Campin

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #190 on: October 03, 2017, 07:02:32 PM »

I don't have perfect pitch (except to a very limited extent, I seem to get reference pitches right most of the time when tuning things).

A flute is just a very handy thing to use when picking up tunes.  (Alto is even better because the range matches a violin).  A Boehm flute is reasonably controllable in pitch, my 8-key isn't too bad either.  Baroque flutes are a different ballgame (read Quantz) and the Irish-flute culture seems to think it's uncool to be in tune (cheap keyless flutes give them exactly what they want).

I don't really see any extra problem when trying to play a CBA (which I can't do well enough to try in public, but the problems aren't conceptual) - the Stradella layout is very logical.  And bisonorics do have their own logic.  I don't see why it should be such a huge problem to reproducibly play scales and arpeggios in all the likely keys without a fingering chart in front of you, and once you've done that you've got what you need to play by intervallic intuition.
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playandteach

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #191 on: October 03, 2017, 07:21:00 PM »

Chris, the first thing with intonation is to hear it - if you can't identify the direction and amount of the issue, you can't fix it. Beyond that there are things you can do - one is setting the pitch on a stable note - for example the tuning note on the clarinet is usually flat on a Bb clarinet, and sharp on an A clarinet - so if you tune to those notes you'll be compromising the rest of the scale. On a flute it's good to check both octaves and a different note. Then there are things you can do with turning the flute out or in - and if your friend is consistently flat unless she plays full tilt, then maybe a physical change to the length of the headjoint MIGHT be worth considering - only if there is a problem with it, not her. I had a couple of millimetres chopped (by a craftsman) off a clarinet - but that is something you really do need to know what you're doing before risking it.

Jack, I think - for me - the issue really is the push pull thing - intervals are differently achieved depending on what the chord is - especially if the chord changes with the melodic interval - that means there are at least 4 ways of playing that melodic interval - push push, push pull, pull push, pull pull - add to that the difference in the upper octave and it does seem more to take on board than just simply knowing where the notes can be found.
I went to the Newcastle playgroup thing last night, and although I picked up the tunes fine (I have no memory to retain them, but that's a different question) I really had to stop to think - what is the most likely chord to go with this phrase, before deciding which right hand buttons to use.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #192 on: October 03, 2017, 07:29:07 PM »

Sounds like I have much the same pitch feel as you then, Jack!

Look, I love the flute - my (sadly suddenly-departed) friend's was a good quality classical instrument, and it was a matter of real regret to me that we just could not get the intonation right enough for good performance together.

CBA's are not what I play, and my fingers unfortunately are not the right shape to work stradella basses, as I found with Atzarin. 

I guess you may not understand the issues for advanced diatonic-based layouts if you don't play them.  When you are discussing keys, you are simply talking about RH playing, but box-players like me are trying to use the instrument for complex tunes in the home keys, where the crucial thing is to select RH fingering that matches the available LH chords.  Sure, I have full RH side chromatic notes if  ignore the LHS, but that's not the point.  You may well say why restrict yourself to a fundamentally limited instrument?  The answer is that the relatively low LH weight allows a range of highly dynamic effects that stradella instrument players seem (as far as I can see) unable to match.

I started this thread with that context I mind, though I feel it is highly instructive to hear viewpoints from players of other instruments.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #193 on: October 03, 2017, 07:31:58 PM »

p&t, sorry, we went through all that with her flute - the inherent problem seems to be that when you play a flute loud and soft, the pitch changes, and significantly.  Regrettably she is no longer with us to discuss these matters!
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Jack Campin

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #194 on: October 03, 2017, 07:47:28 PM »

You adjust the pitch for variable dynamics on a flute by changes in embouchure. It's less of an issue with folk music because the required dynamic range is less.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #195 on: October 03, 2017, 07:54:09 PM »

The difference between soft airs and loud playing was highly noticeable, though she seemed a skilled musician to me.  How does the embouchure change work?

Though really, this is way off topic - forget it.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 07:57:50 PM by Chris Brimley »
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Jack Campin

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #196 on: October 03, 2017, 10:46:06 PM »

How instruments get to play together has to be on topic - flutes and free-reeds have a mismatch that you need to deal with.  Squeeze a free-reed harder and it goes flat; blow a flute harder and (without conscious intervention) it goes sharp.  The flute player has to work extra hard to stay in tune with a free reed partner when things get exciting, since the free-reeder probably can't do a thing about it.

Long-note practice together (particularly playing hairpins) should get you there eventually.
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playandteach

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #197 on: October 03, 2017, 11:32:55 PM »

Pitch does also tend to rise during a performance (with some instruments - which might be why your friend was struggling even though she'd warmed up). This is also why many orchestral harpists tune sharp at the start - so they have a chance of sounding in tune as the pitch rises.
We also have a greater tolerance of a bit sharp to a bit flat - I can't remember why.
Flute players and clarinet players disagree to some extent on where the middle of the note is -which is why flute players might say the performance starts at 7.30 sharp and ends at 9.30 sharper).
Knowing each others problems and being aware of our own issues is a great deal towards playing in tune. If we don't think it's our fault no tuning machine in the world will put it right.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #198 on: October 03, 2017, 11:36:45 PM »

I'm sure many box tuners will wish to comment on that, but I have to say that personally I've always found accordions to be quite stable in terms of pitch.  Is that not so?
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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #199 on: October 04, 2017, 01:59:43 AM »

I'm sure many box tuners will wish to comment on that, but I have to say that personally I've always found accordions to be quite stable in terms of pitch.  Is that not so?
Yes, they are quite stable in pitch. But as Jack has hinted in his most recent post, there is a tendency for the reeds to go flat, typically by up to 5 cents when driven hard, especially the lower pitched push notes (the pull notes tend to be more stable - something to do with the more confined space in the internal reed chamber?)

But P&T has described some of the things which affect 'playing in tune' of other real instruments in real playing situations.

What do we mean by playing in tune? Unless you have an instrument where the sound is made by an electronic sound source - electronic keyboard, synthesiser, etc., the pitch of any particular note is always variable and it is up to the player to listen well enough to 'play in tune'. Obviously on a fretless string instrument such as the violin, the pitch is infinitely variable, but even on a wind instrument, you have to do more than put the correct fingers over the holes/keywork and then stick it in your face and blow it (as a woodwind tutor once said to me).

Playing in tune means constantly listening to your fellow musicians and being aware that you will probably need to adjust your embouchure/fingering/breath control, etc., for every note. Even on the very highest quality woodwind or brass instruments the player needs to do this. Furthermore, 'playing in tune' depends on the musical context of the note you are playing. For example, consider the note E5 (say) on a Bb clarinet (sounding concert D5). This will almost certainly need to be played at a fractionally different pitch in a chord of D major played by the woodwind section, compared to the D5 needed to sound in tune with the string section playing a chord of B minor. You can't just 'stick it in your face and blow it', you have to listen and adjust all the time. The best musicians do this constantly, almost subconsciously, on the fly. It's a musicianship skill, an art, which you come to perfect; it's part of what learning to play an instrument really well means. That's why a top professional orchestra will sound far more 'in tune', compared with a modest amateur orchestra where the players may be enthusiastic but haven't fully acquired the art of listening and adjusting every note as needed.
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