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Author Topic: Performance Skills  (Read 30892 times)

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Chris Brimley

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #200 on: October 04, 2017, 07:30:52 AM »

Good thoughts, Steve.
What can a box player do to help?  Perhaps not a lot during performance. I suppose you could conceivably select more pull notes in the lower registers if possible, but that seems a bit tricky.  The other thing is to have the box tuned relatively dry if playing with others in a concert setting. For two voices, the normal (I believe?) practice of tuning one voice slightly higher than concert pitch can give the instrument a sharp feel. When playing slow airs where intonation is critical in getting a sweet sound I often select the concert pitch voice only, as I expect many other players do.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 07:36:31 AM by Chris Brimley »
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #201 on: October 04, 2017, 08:54:21 AM »

Good thoughts, Steve.
What can a box player do to help?  Perhaps not a lot during performance. I suppose you could conceivably select more pull notes in the lower registers if possible, but that seems a bit tricky.  The other thing is to have the box tuned relatively dry if playing with others in a concert setting. For two voices, the normal (I believe?) practice of tuning one voice slightly higher than concert pitch can give the instrument a sharp feel. When playing slow airs where intonation is critical in getting a sweet sound I often select the concert pitch voice only, as I expect many other players do.

The idea of Viennese 'Dedic' tuning, where one M voice is tuned flat from concert pitch and the other is tuned sharp, results in a perceived pitch which should be just about spot-on concert pitch, yet still having a degree of tremolo. This not only helps playing alongside other instruments, but also means that the RH side of the box is in tune with the LH side (assuming the basses and chords are also set up to concert pitch).

If the reed gap is set up properly in the first place, I don't think minor changes in individual reed pitches due to playing louder or softer are going to have a noticeable effect in normal playing conditions. Most people are going to be quite happy with pitch stability in the ± 5 cents range (including myself, and I'm very pernickety as Theo will tell you! ;) )

Viennese tuning will only be effective so long as both M- and M+ reeds are sounding together. Selecting a single reed will throw out the balanced intonation. So if you have a box with individually selectable M reeds it's best to ignore the above advice and tune one reed to concert pitch and the other reed sharp. As P&T commented a few posts ago, it seems acoustically and psychologically better for an instrument to be slightly sharp (= brightness) rather than slightly flat (= dullness).
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george garside

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #202 on: October 04, 2017, 10:22:07 AM »

I like the phrase ''  don't just stick it in your face and blow it'' with reference to woodwind etc instruments.  Perhaps the box equivalent should be  on the lines of ''don't just  treat the bellows as a bloody great air pump''

george ;)
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Lyra

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #203 on: October 04, 2017, 11:42:08 AM »

I like the phrase ''  don't just stick it in your face and blow it''
Definitely - true. When playing a blowy thing, you are part of the instrument, so a good flautist is constantly "lipping up" or "lipping down" depending which octave you are in (and whether cylindrical or conical bore, how hot it is, who you are playing with etc etc). Dryer tuning is easier to play with because you can "find" the centre, if you follow me. It's not just melodeons - I knew someone who had the honour to play with Sir Jimmy Galway and found it a nightmare as he plays with such huge vibrato you can hardly find the note! Don't get me started on people who tune to a machine instead of the instrument they are playing along with because that is "correct", regardless of what the other poor sod is stuck with.
The point about listening being as important as blowing or squeezing seems to be crucial - not just for tuning but for   tempo >:E and canny stuff like finishing at the same time.
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george garside

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #204 on: October 04, 2017, 12:09:06 PM »

I like the phrase ''  don't just stick it in your face and blow it''
Definitely - true. 

The point about listening being as important as blowing or squeezing seems to be crucial - not just for tuning but for   tempo >:E and canny stuff like finishing at the same time.

I would say that 'listening' is in fact more important than 'blowing and squeezing'  as it is impossible to do the latter WELL without having mastered the former!

george
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JohnAndy

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #205 on: October 04, 2017, 12:13:58 PM »

One of the joys of the melodeon, is that at least, you don't have to worry about being out of tune. The rest of the band just have to get in tune with you! (Well, if it really is out of tune, it might need to go on a trip to see Theo, but in any case there's nothing you can really do about it at the time of playing).

The flute, on the other hand, is highly liable to be out of tune but at least you can learn to correct it. Yes, it does tend to go flat when played more quietly, but this can be compensated for by slightly increasing pressure of lips/ smaller aperture of lips / extension of lower lip / plenty of support for air stream from diaphragm. Or something like that.

The tough one is the recorder. Try taking it out of your bag after arriving at a session and joining in a tune, after a long drive in a cold car. The blasted thing comes out a quarter tone flat! Even if you make some attempt to warm it up first! And there's no way of "lipping it up". All you can do to get it in tune is to play really, really LOUD. Which can be quite embarrassing. Though after a while it comes up to pitch and all is well with the world again. (If there are any expert recorder players out there who know different, please let me know!!!)

[Well, I suppose the answer is obvious when I think about it really, I just ought to stick the recorder under my top for 10 minutes to let it come up to body temperature before trying to play it. I'm probably just too impatient, but typically somebody starts up one of my all-time favourite tunes just as I arrive, and I just *have* to join in...]
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 12:26:03 PM by JohnAndy »
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Jack Campin

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #206 on: October 04, 2017, 12:58:53 PM »

I have sometimes played with a guy who has a melodeon tuned substantially sharp of normal (A=443 or maybe higher).  The idea is that he can squeeze the hell out of it on band gigs till it drops to standard pitch, and if he's still a bit sharp of everybody else, that's fine because he's the one that will get all the attention.

Unfortunately he brings the same box to pub sessions where that kind of playing isn't on.  The result is that he's shriekingly out of tune with everybody else - worst with moothies.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #207 on: October 04, 2017, 01:20:45 PM »

This thread is coming up with such interesting stuff...... will relate flute info to flute playing daughter.
The idea of 'finding the centre' of a note is mind blowing for me.
Fascinating peeps, keep it coming!
Q
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I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

george garside

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #208 on: October 04, 2017, 01:46:17 PM »

interesting indeed  but just how much of it applies in the real world of ceilidh band  rather than classical playing I'm not entirely sure ? At one time I had a trombone and a clarinet  in addition to box, fiddle and drum  and it seemed to work very well with the trombone bumping up and down octaves ( he called it improvising!)  a bit like an acoustic double bass.

george
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #209 on: October 04, 2017, 02:09:25 PM »

George, do you know I think there's actually two 'real worlds' here - playing in a ceilidh band requires dynamics, and maybe wetter tuning on a box.  In the other world, concert (and maybe session) performance, is a place where listening between musos is the aim, drier-tuned boxes and subtlety, bellows-related feel, and sweet intonation are the ideal.  However, I'm not yet convinced that 'going sharp' is a good idea in either situation!  I would have  thought a proper musician would above all want to create a shared sound.  I have that as a bit of a musical aim for me as a box player - it is a proper musical instrument, even amongst the sniffier classical musos! 

I've been really interested in the comments from wind instrument players here, particularly Lyra and JohnAndy - there is a really interesting future thread there, about sharing accordion sounds with other instruments.  Someone like to start it?  JohnAndy, I actually thought the flute was worse than the recorder or whistle in intonation terms, so I was interested in your clearly knowledgeable comment.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #210 on: October 04, 2017, 02:14:01 PM »

Steve, re your interesting tuning comments, I'm not quite sure yet why it's a good idea to tune sharp deliberately - that may be good for oneself but is it good socially? - what do you do yourself?   
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JohnAndy

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #211 on: October 04, 2017, 02:22:52 PM »

Chris, a flute offers more control over intonation than either a recorder or a whistle, because you're directly in control of the sound production with your lips, you can change the angle, width and speed of the air stream hitting the lip plate, etc.

With a recorder or whistle, you're at one remove from the sound production - you blow down a hole, the air passes through a specially shaped airway and is directed onto the "fipple", a sort of blade that splits the airstream and produces the sound. As far as I'm aware, all you can really do to change the pitch is to blow harder or softer, which of course equates to louder or quieter sound as well as changing the pitch. Expert players may be able to use special variant fingerings to correct intonation of specific notes, but I don't believe you have the same level of overall pitch control as you do on the flute.

On the other hand, it may well be the case that when you first start playing a recorder or whistle, you get reasonable intonation straight away, whereas with the flute there's a longer learning curve - you need to learn how to exercise the control of intonation that the instrument allows you.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #212 on: October 04, 2017, 02:45:43 PM »

Steve, re your interesting tuning comments, I'm not quite sure yet why it's a good idea to tune sharp deliberately - that may be good for oneself but is it good socially? - what do you do yourself?
I'm not saying I advocate it. It's just one of the compromises you need to make or accept with the melodeon/accordion. E.g....

1. Two-voice melodeon MM, (e.g. Hohner Pokerwork, etc.), no stops to control voices. Can be advantageously put into Viennese tuning M-, M+. Will sound good and at a pitch mid-way between the two voices.

2. Three voice melodeon MML, (e.g. Castagnari Tommy, DB Black Pearl III, etc), with a single stop to switch the L voice in or out. Can be advantageously put into Viennese tuning M-, M+, and with the L reed tuned to concert pitch L0. Will sound good and at a pitch mid-way between the two M voices. Will also sound in tune with the L voice when selected.

3. Three voice melodeon MML, (e.g. Castagnari Hascy, Mory, Saltarelle Nuage, etc), where the MM voices are independently selectable. If the M voices are Viennese tuned M-, M+, plus L0 the instrument will only sound OK when MM or MML voices are selected. However, selecting ML will sound horrible, because of the clash of either M- or M+ with the L0.

In this type of instrument it is far better to tune the M reeds to M0 and M+. This way, when M0L0 is selected ('bandoneon setting') the ML reeds will be in octave unison. M0M+ and M0M+L0 will overall sound slightly sharp, but it's an acceptable and practical compromise.

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playandteach

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #213 on: October 04, 2017, 03:42:29 PM »

I like the phrase ''  don't just stick it in your face and blow it''
I knew someone who had the honour to play with Sir Jimmy Galway and found it a nightmare as he plays with such huge vibrato you can hardly find the note! Don't get me started on people who tune to a machine instead of the instrument they are playing along with because that is "correct", regardless of what the other poor sod is stuck with.
Even great players can have bad habits. James Galway does play on the sharp side of the note (great player of course) - partly I suspect because of the 'brilliance' of the sound he wants to achieve. I feel slightly grubby criticising him, but it is relevant to the thread.
William Bennett didn't play sharp as a rule.
A well know harpist (I've probably told this story before) used to play the Mozart Flute and Harp concerto with them both, and also her husband who was a well known player. On radio she said, when I play it with Jimmy I tune a bit sharp, when I play it with WIB (William Bennett's nickname) I tune a bit flat, when I play it with [my husband] I don't bother tuning at all.
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JohnAndy

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #214 on: October 04, 2017, 04:06:28 PM »

Oh dear, that must refer to Mr CHS.

I was thinking about him in the context of this thread, anyway, before you posted this, as to how we actually make those little adjustments to intonation, lipping it up or down, as Lyra put it.

These things are normally done unconsciously, and I'm not sure I know quite what is involved in lipping up or down, but I'm pretty sure that most teachers would recommend subtle adjustments around the embouchure rather than doing a wholesale rotation of the flute executed by the hands and fingers.

Yet I remember seeing Mr CHS playing a concerto in Leeds Town Hall back in the day, indeed it was the Mozart Flute and Harp with his wife. I was really struck by the extent to which he did rotate the flute around in his hands - I've never seen any other flute player do that to the same extent.

I have to say though, that I did enjoy his playing - very expressive, and I can't remember noticing anything bad about the intonation!

[Edited to remove the name of the flautist in question]
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 04:10:09 PM by JohnAndy »
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playandteach

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #215 on: October 04, 2017, 04:20:15 PM »

I don't think his wife was overly serious. It might even be a compliment. He's just not the high profile player that Wibb or Jimmy is. My favourite flute players aren't recognised names.
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JohnAndy

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #216 on: October 04, 2017, 04:24:27 PM »

Oh good, I'm glad to hear that, because I liked him  (:)
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #217 on: October 04, 2017, 05:37:18 PM »

Steve, you talk about compromises that need to be made with the accordion in terms of tuning, but it does seem from your other comments that actually it's a relatively stable instrument, well able to hold its own against other wind instruments in terms of sound and intonation quality.

I don't play violin at all, but I do play fretless bass, and it's highly instructive to me that a very small (<1mm) position change on a bass string can make a significant change in pitch, particularly important if you're recording. I like to see visually what I'm doing in comparison with the fretline marks, and it makes me wonder how on earth violinists, with their tiny scale lengths, manage to stay adequately in tune.  I can only imagine that they develop the technique of fingering an initial position on each note as accurately as they can, and then learn very quickly to adjust fingers with a spot of vibrato to cover it up!

Generally speaking, when performing with others, I've learned that actually a finely-tuned box can be used as a reference point for the other musicians to tune to - it's generally pretty good! 
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Stiamh

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #218 on: October 04, 2017, 05:54:21 PM »

... how on earth violinists, with their tiny scale lengths, manage to stay adequately in tune.  I can only imagine that they develop the technique of fingering an initial position on each note as accurately as they can, and then learn very quickly to adjust fingers with a spot of vibrato to cover it up!

That's not really how it works, Chris... yes there is a constant feedback loop between ears and fingers, and sometimes you need to be able to adjust intonation on the fly, or to whoever you are playing with. But basically, in the normal course of events, you know where to put your fingers and you certainly don't need vibrato to fudge the issue.

Chris Brimley

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #219 on: October 04, 2017, 10:36:40 PM »

Anyway, good intonation is certainly something else that is important when performing, I'd say.  If you're performing with other instruments, this may well be something that is worth discussing in some detail, because the sweet and accurate tone of many well-tuned accordions requires equally accurate performance by players of these other instruments, and they may actually not be used to this.

Something else that I'm only recently coming to understand fully is the ability of a button accordion player to use variations in the bellows pressure (short-term, long-term, or pulsating) to great effect, within a note, much as a classical musician does.  It really can be a very expressive instrument, but again, I must admit I don't often hear players who do that.
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