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Author Topic: Performance Skills  (Read 30893 times)

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george garside

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #220 on: October 04, 2017, 10:53:33 PM »

the use variation of bellows pressure to great effect applies on all types of accordion/melodeon ( and closely related concertina).  The bellows are the very soul of the instrument and with practice the volume can be varied for a single note if required  and the dynamic range on most boxes can vary between a whisper and a roar. The bellows can also be used to gently pulse in an additional layer of rhythm  on top of the rhythm  generated by  treble and bass.  Sadly  many players just use the bellows as a bloody great air pump!

george
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #221 on: October 04, 2017, 10:55:58 PM »

Yep!
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #222 on: October 04, 2017, 11:06:52 PM »

Steve, you talk about compromises that need to be made with the accordion in terms of tuning, but it does seem from your other comments that actually it's a relatively stable instrument, well able to hold its own against other wind instruments in terms of sound and intonation quality.

I think there are two separate things here:
(a) The way in which the accordion/melodeon is tuned, e.g. Viennese vs non-Viennese, etc., which determines the overall perceived pitch of the instrument. Once this has been set by the tuning person, it is usually very stable and will only change relatively slowly over time (months/years) as the instrument is played.

(b) The way in which individual notes (particularly low push notes) change pitch slightly if the note is played with overly strong bellows pressure. Once the pressure is reduced, the pitch of the note will normally revert back to its usual value. This is a short-term temporary phenomenon only.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #223 on: October 04, 2017, 11:16:28 PM »

the use variation of bellows pressure to great effect applies on all types of accordion/melodeon ( and closely related concertina). The bellows are the very soul of the instrument and with practice the volume can be varied for a single note if required  and the dynamic range on most boxes can vary between a whisper and a roar. The bellows can also be used to gently pulse in an additional layer of rhythm on top of the rhythm generated by treble and bass.

An absolute master of this sort of technique is the French melodeon player, Christian Maes. I always remember when he was a tutor at Witney a few years ago - he really made the reeds sing (just like a real singer). A few brief hours in his workshops had a profound influence on my own playing.

There aren't many good videos of his playing unfortunately, but here's one from that actual Witney workshop. Christian is demonstrating a tune/style playing on my Castagnari Lilium.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioCZZqnvwCk   
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Guy

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #224 on: October 05, 2017, 12:15:18 AM »


I knew a woodwind player who initially started on the clarinet, but was never comfortable with it. .... struggling with the clarinet, he realised that he was constantly having a conflict reading a written note, his brain telling him how the pitch ought to sound, and yet the clarinet giving him a different pitch (it being a transposing instrument and sounding one tone lower than written). It didn't make it impossible for him, but I guess it was always something of a handicap.

Thank you Steve, you've just solved something that has been a mystery for me since I was in the school orchestra. I learned to play the clarinet for years, but it was always a struggle, even though I loved music. Then I was given a guitar, and you couldn't separate me from it....till I picked up a melodeon. It just felt natural...and the notes are in the right pitch.

Cheers,
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Jack Campin

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #225 on: October 05, 2017, 12:30:50 AM »

The absolute master of bellows control among all things squeezy has to be the Russian classical bayan player Friedrich Lips.  Dunno how many of his ideas will transfer to a bisonoric instrument but it certainly couldn't hurt to try.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #226 on: October 05, 2017, 01:10:44 AM »

Steve, re your interesting tuning comments, I'm not quite sure yet why it's a good idea to tune sharp deliberately - that may be good for oneself but is it good socially? - what do you do yourself?
I'm not saying I advocate it. It's just one of the compromises you need to make or accept with the melodeon/accordion. E.g....

1. Two-voice melodeon MM, (e.g. Hohner Pokerwork, etc.), no stops to control voices. Can be advantageously put into Viennese tuning M-, M+. Will sound good and at a pitch mid-way between the two voices.

2. Three voice melodeon MML, (e.g. Castagnari Tommy, DB Black Pearl III, etc), with a single stop to switch the L voice in or out. Can be advantageously put into Viennese tuning M-, M+, and with the L reed tuned to concert pitch L0. Will sound good and at a pitch mid-way between the two M voices. Will also sound in tune with the L voice when selected.

3. Three voice melodeon MML, (e.g. Castagnari Hascy, Mory, Saltarelle Nuage, etc), where the MM voices are independently selectable. If the M voices are Viennese tuned M-, M+, plus L0 the instrument will only sound OK when MM or MML voices are selected. However, selecting ML will sound horrible, because of the clash of either M- or M+ with the L0.

In this type of instrument it is far better to tune the M reeds to M0 and M+. This way, when M0L0 is selected ('bandoneon setting') the ML reeds will be in octave unison. M0M+ and M0M+L0 will overall sound slightly sharp, but it's an acceptable and practical compromise.


For me, this raises a couple of questions in my mind.
Chris,
the reason why flat sounds worse than flat sounds worse than sharp is that flat sounds duller and sharp sounds brighter so, over the centuries, generations of musicians have competed to sound brighter at the expense of standard intonation. Play sharp and most people will think it's everyone else who's out of tune. It's tempted generations of musicians, so why should we be any different?

Steve,
What is the effect of viennese tuning when a viennese tuned melodeonist plays with a bunch of people playing "standard" tuned boxes. Will he sound flat, or will he just add to the overall wetness?
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Jack Campin

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #227 on: October 05, 2017, 01:27:53 AM »

Quote
over the centuries, generations of musicians have competed to sound brighter at the expense of standard intonation

Not always.  For recorders, one of the commonest Renaissance pitches is A=466, and pitch went steadily down from there for a couple of centuries, bottoming out in late 17th century France at around A=392.  It tended to rise from there, around A=415 for a lot of Bach and Handel's performers, on up to around A=425 for Mozart, then up some more to around A=435 in most of Europe around 1850, then iregularly up in several places going as high as A=460 in central Europe in the early 20th century.  Then back down a bit to end up around A=440 in the 40s, then very slightly up to A=444 for some orchestras today.  Meanwhile Highland pipe bands have shot up to the 470s.

So, no very logical pattern.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #228 on: October 05, 2017, 07:52:52 AM »

Steve,
What is the effect of viennese tuning when a viennese tuned melodeonist plays with a bunch of people playing "standard" tuned boxes. Will he sound flat, or will he just add to the overall wetness?
I think it depends on the context.

In my experience if you are in a session with lots of other people playing a variety of instruments - perhaps fiddles, whistles, flutes, as well as melodeons and accordions, the general intonation will be very spread out and blurry anyway. In this situation, generally people don't listen to their intonation or try particularly to correct it. That's just the way it is, and why sessions sound like they do. So I don't think a Viennese tuned box will stand out any more than a indifferently factory-tuned Pokerwork.

However, if you are playing in a more discerning combination - perhaps on stage with a couple of other musicians, one of whom has a 'standard-tuned' box like a Pokerwork, then yes - you will notice some difference between this and a Viennese tuned instrument played together. Whether the Viennese instrument is perceived as flat, or the standard tuned instrument is perceived as sharp is an interesting point. But remember that the Viennese tuned box will have both LH and RH sides in tune with each other all across the range - something which doesn't happen in 'standard' tuning. So the LH chords and basses of the Viennese instrument might provide an 'intonation reference base' against which the other instruments are played/heard.
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Anahata

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #229 on: October 05, 2017, 11:11:01 AM »

Also if one of the other musicians is playing a fixed pitch instrument like a keyboard or concertina, they and the Viennese/Dedic tuned box will have a majority pitch consensus.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #230 on: October 05, 2017, 05:24:01 PM »

Christian Maes is a superb player, and although I suppose I tend more to French music than Irish, I have to say that in term of sensitive bellows technique, this did it for me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe1EjTMPl0Q
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #231 on: October 05, 2017, 05:27:22 PM »

And 'Majority Pitch Consensus' seems like a mighty good turn of phrase to me!  I think that is probably a pretty good skill to learn when performing.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #232 on: October 05, 2017, 05:43:19 PM »

Quote
Play sharp and most people will think it's everyone else who's out of tune. It's tempted generations of musicians, so why should we be any different?

Detecting tongues in cheeks, I'd say:  Because there's a better way, and that's to play sensitively to others - which of course, we both know!  I suppose that I'm queasy about the idea that just because a box player is loud, and wants to lead tunes, that's going to be OK with other musicians.
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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #233 on: October 06, 2017, 09:47:59 AM »

Christian Maes is a superb player, and although I suppose I tend more to French music than Irish, I have to say that in term of sensitive bellows technique, this did it for me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe1EjTMPl0Q

That is absolutely beautiful!
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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #234 on: October 06, 2017, 10:20:00 AM »

Christian Maes is a superb player, and although I suppose I tend more to French music than Irish, I have to say that in term of sensitive bellows technique, this did it for me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe1EjTMPl0Q

That is absolutely beautiful!

It is. You have to admire the way he switched the L reeds in on the fly, as well.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #235 on: October 06, 2017, 10:27:54 AM »

Phew, the ideas keep coming.....
I'd love to hear a comparison between a Viennese tuned box against a 'standard' tuned.
Anyone know of any examples?

Pulsing the bellows is something I remember Ollie of this parish talking about ages ago.
I'd really like to understand how to achieve it as I've previously heard it in Ollie's playing and the subtle effect is excellent.
Any tips or hints?
Q
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george garside

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #236 on: October 06, 2017, 01:21:33 PM »

an simple way to start pulsing the bellows ( which is not to be confused with 'bellows shake' as used by some piano box players) is to introduce it into a simple waltz tune. . Daisy Bell ( daisy daisy) played simply on the row is ideal as the first 4 bars are all push and all contain one complete 'um pa pa' of rhythm.  In exact time with the um pa pa's GENTLY pulse the bellows i.e PUSH push push in each of the first 4 bars and then try it whereaver the bellows are going in the same direction for  at least an Iumm pa pa's worth of rhythm.

It can of course also be done in 2/4, 4/4 and 6/8  by pulsing in time with the um pa of the bass.

It takes a bit of practice to get the hang of it but it can provide a third layer of rhythm entirely free of charge!

george
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arty

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #237 on: October 06, 2017, 01:39:57 PM »

I shall be trying to get the shakes this weekend!

https://youtu.be/wlWzNBr2ju8
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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #238 on: October 06, 2017, 01:40:58 PM »

Pulsing the bellows is something I remember Ollie of this parish talking about ages ago.
I'd really like to understand how to achieve it as I've previously heard it in Ollie's playing and the subtle effect is excellent.
Any tips or hints?
Q
Here's a very old recording made by Dazbo of this parish, of me playing one of Oscar Woods' waltzes. I was putting quite a bit of bellows pulsing in to it, especially at the beginning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnNRC_Z2GJ4

 
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george garside

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Re: Performance Skills
« Reply #239 on: October 06, 2017, 02:35:28 PM »

I shall be trying to get the shakes this weekend!

https://youtu.be/wlWzNBr2ju8

bellows pulsing is different to shakes in that the pulses are all in the same direction and so do not alter the note.  The Shakes you mention of Bob Cann  involve a very fine but rapid back pull on the bellows ( I call it a back flick) that obviously brings in  the note on the other side of the button  eg G & A  would be G main note and a very slight touch of A as a wee grace note.

Both pulsing and 'back flick' have their place and of course could if desired be used in different parts of the same tune.

the thing is to practice both techniques so that can be used fairly sparingly  and only when  they can add something worthwhile to a tune 

george
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