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Author Topic: D/D# versus C#/D OR D/C#  (Read 615 times)

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boxcall

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D/D# versus C#/D OR D/C#
« on: September 13, 2017, 05:14:24 PM »

I have a question about different systems. I play D/C# and I am thinking about maybe getting a better box than what I have now ( better action and more basses). So as an outside / in player,  on my box the Cnat. Is on the pull but G# is on the push these are the notes I would use the most. Same goes for C#/D and I'd have to get use to inside/ out playing, But with D/D# those notes would be where you would want them logically. Also the A# and D# are in the same direction as the outside row.

So my question is what is the downside to this system? I sure I must be missing something.
Also the recording of players that use this system I like.
I don't do treble chords at least not yet.

Any help is appreciated!!
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Hohner 1040 C, Beltuna one row four stop D, O'Byrne Dewitt/ Baldoni bros. D/C#, "pepperpot" one row D

triskel

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Re: D/D# versus C#/D OR D/C#
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2017, 05:48:12 PM »

On this side of the Atlantic there tended to be a shift from "outside-in" playing to "inside-out" some 60 years ago, so that D/D#, C/C# and G/G# started to become semi-obsolete and (mostly) B/C, and (relatively few) C#/D boxes took over.

But many older players, like Joe Cooley and Joe McNamara (who played with him in the Tulla) stuck to what they were used to (D/D# and G/G# respectively in the case of the two Joes).

Joe Cooley preferred to play "inside-out" in Eb (so in C#/D style) on his D/D#, but he could also play it "outside-in" when the need for "concert pitch" (key of D) arose, but very few people can do that today.

An easy way to more basses might be to convert a C#/D to D/C#, which is very straightforward and seems to have been what was done in the case of John Lavelle's Paolo Sopranis.
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deltasalmon

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Re: D/D# versus C#/D OR D/C#
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2017, 06:11:28 PM »

I've never heard of G/G# boxes. Just out of curiosity, would the G be higher or lower than the D on a D/D#?
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Sean McGinnis
Bordentown City, NJ, USA

Van der Aa Compact II C#/D - Hohner Compadre ADG - One-Row, 4-stop in C - Custom "Chanson" in D (LM)

triskel

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Re: D/D# versus C#/D OR D/C#
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2017, 06:39:55 PM »

I've never heard of G/G# boxes. Just out of curiosity, would the G be higher or lower than the D on a D/D#?

Lower.

I've an Irish Hohner catalogue from the 1930s that specially lists 10-key Regal melodeons "in Key G specially to tune with other musical instruments" and I've had both Hohner and Paolo Soprani boxes in G/G#. The system seems to have been popular in the 1930s/40s, and both Paddy O'Brien (from Nenagh) and Joe Burke started out on it.

I often mention it.
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Stiamh

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Re: D/D# versus C#/D OR D/C#
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2017, 07:03:15 PM »

Michael, I think there's more to it than which of your accidentals will be on the push or pull.

I think there is a killer advantage to having the semitone row pitched lower than the main row (C#/D or D/C#, or B/C ) as opposed to higher than the main row (D/D#) that outweighs any benefits you might now see to having which notes in which direction.

This killer advantage is having all the accidentals on the semitone row in the same bellows direction as the note immediately above (i.e. G# is push, like A, and Bb is pull, like B, and so on).

I try to explain why I think this is so brilliant in this thread: http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=20083.msg242767#msg242767

Now, to offset that, the D/D# has G and D as "magic notes" and this is pretty handy for playing fluidly, esp. in the key of G. You can get almost B/C-like smooth runs.

But I still reckon that having the semitone row pitched lower is the best option. IMO 50,000 Irish accordionists have not got it wrong (even if 500 of them in NY insist on putting the semitone row on the inside....).

Edited to add: Note that Mairtin O'Connor, about whom we were talking, plays his D/D# box inside-out, i.e. using the D# row as the main row - in effect, as a C#/D jacked up a semitone.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 07:08:07 PM by Stiamh »
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boxcall

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Re: D/D# versus C#/D OR D/C#
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2017, 08:56:48 PM »

Thanks for your input Stephen and Steve,
I"m see what your saying now Steve, I wasn't thinking in those terms, so thanks for answering my question.
Maybe because of my one row playing it seems more difficult to go up the scale with a note in the same direction, even though it happens between B and C# on my D box.
But I really haven't been putting the time in to the two row box which is probably why. Plus I'm reaching across row for it.

Sorry for starting a new thread when the answer was already there folks, I tried to find it but wasn't typing the right search words.

Back to it!!
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Hohner 1040 C, Beltuna one row four stop D, O'Byrne Dewitt/ Baldoni bros. D/C#, "pepperpot" one row D

gettabettabox

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Re: D/D# versus C#/D OR D/C#
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2017, 11:02:05 PM »

I am in agreement with the replies already posted.
In my mind, the D/D# system when played outside in for standard pitch, sounds like the single row style but obviously with all accidentals to hand.
It will be more difficult to get the fluidity and the sound style offered by the C#/D  system, besides which, the C#/D system facilitates the key of A...and it's great to lift all the G tunes up a tone using the B/C parts of the brain. (Which I understand is at the very back of the brain!)  (:)
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deltasalmon

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Re: D/D# versus C#/D OR D/C#
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2017, 01:08:32 AM »

I'm a C#/D player but this forum has made me really consider D/D#. I actually enjoy playing D tunes on the C# row on my box but I haven't really tried anything off row.

Stiamh mentioned above about the "magic notes" being D and G which is a real selling point.
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Sean McGinnis
Bordentown City, NJ, USA

Van der Aa Compact II C#/D - Hohner Compadre ADG - One-Row, 4-stop in C - Custom "Chanson" in D (LM)

boxcall

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Re: D/D# versus C#/D OR D/C#
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2017, 10:53:03 PM »

I am in agreement with the replies already posted.
In my mind, the D/D# system when played outside in for standard pitch, sounds like the single row style but obviously with all accidentals to hand.
It will be more difficult to get the fluidity and the sound style offered by the C#/D  system, besides which, the C#/D system facilitates the key of A...and it's great to lift all the G tunes up a tone using the B/C parts of the brain. (Which I understand is at the very back of the brain!)  (:)
Gettabettabox,
Well the D/C# is pretty much melodeon style any way, so that's why I was considering D/D#.
Why or would it be easier to play in A on C#/D than on D/C#?


Deltasalmon,
I am trying to understand, so you just have two notes on the outside row in the key of D , so you are mainly playing on the inside row with a couple of notes with different bellow changes on the outside row, does that smooth out your playing or make some runs easier? Or maybe it helps with basses.

This is interesting to a musical theory dummy like Me.
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george garside

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Re: D/D# versus C#/D OR D/C#
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2017, 11:01:04 PM »

reading through this very interesting thread on  views on the good and bad points of different 2 row semitone box tunings  I am left wondering why  small (melodeon size eg castagnari benny 3.1kg) tuned BCC# aren't more popular either with  12 bass notes only ( no chords)  or 12 stradella.  It would provide all 12 keys  I n one simple little semitone box

george
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triskel

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Re: D/D# versus C#/D OR D/C#
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2017, 11:32:33 PM »

... I am left wondering why  small (melodeon size eg castagnari benny 3.1kg) tuned BCC# aren't more popular either with  12 bass notes only ( no chords)  or 12 stradella.  It would provide all 12 keys  I n one simple little semitone box

Only it'd want to be C#/D/D# for "us lot" George, and we'd have to like Castagnaris too...  :o
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george garside

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Re: D/D# versus C#/D OR D/C#
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2017, 11:39:37 PM »

cant say I'm  over fond of castagnaris  was just using that as an example for size and weight. would much prefer a cairdene ( not sure if I have spelt that correctly)

george ;)
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Theo

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Re: D/D# versus C#/D OR D/C#
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2017, 11:39:46 PM »

Probably because for most diatonic box players the ability to play in all 12 keys is of little interest.
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Theo Gibb

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george garside

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Re: D/D# versus C#/D OR D/C#
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2017, 11:42:42 PM »

maybe not but having a full range of accidentals exactly where they should be plus another another lot arse upards has a lot to be said for it

george :D
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Stiamh

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Re: D/D# versus C#/D OR D/C#
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2017, 12:50:10 AM »

Would it be easier to play in A on C#/D than on D/C#?

That's a question I'd love to be able to answer, but to do so I'd have to spend some time with a D/C# box and that is not very likely to happen. My hunch is that the way your fingers have to reach forward to grab notes on the C# row on a D/C# might result in more staccato playing (think Joe Derrane), where slipping and sliding is easier on a C#/D and hence a tendency to greater fluidity (compare most Irish players with Derrane). But this is pretty speculative.

Deltasalmon,
I am trying to understand, so you just have two notes on the outside row in the key of D , so you are mainly playing on the inside row with a couple of notes with different bellow changes on the outside row, does that smooth out your playing or make some runs easier? Or maybe it helps with basses.

(Pre-empting Sean here) Yes it smooths out your playing and makes runs easier. And yes it is necessary for certain choices of basses. On a C#/D, the outer row F# is used when you need a Bm chord and the outer row C# is used for a A push chord or an F#m chord.

You might also use these notes in a run to save interrupting a different chord, e.g. use the outer row F# in a sequence E-F#-G or G-F#-E so that you can use an A pull chord or and Em chord without interruption, or use the C# in a run like D-C#-A so that you can keep your D chord going.

I use all these strategies all the time.

triskel

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Re: D/D# versus C#/D OR D/C#
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2017, 12:57:12 AM »

Speaking of 3-rows, in this context, I'm reminded of a box I bought at a guitar show (yes, I know! ::)) in Anaheim, California, some years ago. It was made by the Guerrini Co. in San Francisco, in 1921, and has three rows, but only two reedblocks - with the inside and outside rows working on the same lever, and (hence) the same reeds.

I've often thought I should restore it to playing condition with the reeds changed to C# and D sets, so it would be C#/D/C# (which seems like the only useful, or sensible layout to have on it, so it'll play both "inside out" and "outside in"), but other (more urgent, and more useful) projects keep coming along, like a certain Delfini... :o
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 06:00:44 AM by triskel »
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deltasalmon

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Re: D/D# versus C#/D OR D/C#
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2017, 01:17:03 AM »

Another benefit to the D/D# box, it would make playing along with all those albums played in Eb  :||:
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Sean McGinnis
Bordentown City, NJ, USA

Van der Aa Compact II C#/D - Hohner Compadre ADG - One-Row, 4-stop in C - Custom "Chanson" in D (LM)

boxcall

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Re: D/D# versus C#/D OR D/C#
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2017, 02:43:32 AM »

[Quote from: boxcall on September 14, 2017, 10:53:03 PM
Would it be easier to play in A on C#/D than on D/C#?]

[That's a question I'd love to be able to answer, but to do so I'd have to spend some time with a D/C# box and that is not very likely to happen. My hunch is that the way your fingers have to reach forward to grab notes on the C# row on a D/C# might result in more staccato playing (think Joe Derrane), where slipping and sliding is easier on a C#/D and hence a tendency to greater fluidity (compare most Irish players with Derrane). But this is pretty speculative.]
 

When I think of Joe Derrane I think of lots of triplets (:)
Yes I do see what you mean though (staccato) almost more so on his earlier stuff than on his later to my ear. I thought space between notes was a good thing, maybe only at times, e.g. Good for hornpipe and jigs not reels?


[Quote from: boxcall on September 14, 2017, 10:53:03 PM
Deltasalmon,
I am trying to understand, so you just have two notes on the outside row in the key of D , so you are mainly playing on the inside row with a couple of notes with different bellow changes on the outside row, does that smooth out your playing or make some runs easier? Or maybe it helps with basses.]

[(Pre-empting Sean here) Yes it smooths out your playing and makes runs easier. And yes it is necessary for certain choices of basses. On a C#/D, the outer row F# is used when you need a Bm chord and the outer row C# is used for a A push chord or an F#m chord.

You might also use these notes in a run to save interrupting a different chord, e.g. use the outer row F# in a sequence E-F#-G or G-F#-E so that you can use an A pull chord or and Em chord without interruption, or use the C# in a run like D-C#-A so that you can keep your D chord going.

I use all these strategies all the time.]


So these same techniques could be use on my D/C# and if basses were in the right direction and there were enough of them, I only have four bass buttons. I should try playing some D stuff using notes from the inner row, I never did this. Like I mentioned to you, I really haven't been playing it as much as I should.

Well the cross row stuff in D will have to wait, I've got some practice to do!!


Edit: I didn't get the quotation right, sorry
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 02:50:37 AM by boxcall »
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