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Author Topic: Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?  (Read 6223 times)

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Steve_freereeder

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Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?
« on: October 10, 2017, 12:24:41 AM »

In the now closed thread on Performance Skills which contained much interest and wisdom, the question was raised about why the melodeon has never seemed to make it as an orchestral instrument.

Chris Brimley wrote:
Quote
I have long admired the sort of feeling that string quartet musicians manage to get into their playing all the time.  The bow is an expressive way of playing, because of the subtlety and control that you have over dynamics.  So given that you ought to be able to do that with bellows too, why is the box not accepted as the orchestral instrument that it deserves to be? ........ Box players have lots of performance skills that we've yet to unleash!

In reply, Pearse Rossa posted the following links:
Quote
You might be interested in these videos:
Beoga and RTÉ concert orchestra
Sharon Shannon and RTÉ concert orchestra
Máirtín O' Connor and string quartet

These are fine performances but the melodeon is treated as a 'traditional instrument' and the performances are essentially in the style of traditional music which happens to have an orchestral or chamber music backing.

Chris Brimley's concluding remark:
Quote
My hunch is that because of its humble beginnings, the bigger box is shunned by many orchestral musicians unfairly. Using ears rather than prejudices might result in realising its huge potential, but we need the interpretative teachers to bring it all about, for the next generation.

Chris is correct, but as well as 'interpretive teachers' we also need composers to realise and understand the potential of the melodeon as a non-traditional instrument, and start writing music for it in combination with other orchestral instruments. This has been done for accordions and particularly (especially in the latter part of the 19th century) for English concertina, which for a time was treated as a serious orchestral and solo instrument with capabilities similar to a violin. As far as I am aware, that hasn't yet happened for melodeon. It is pretty much exclusively thought of as a 'folk' instrument capable only of 'traditional'-style music (which of course it does exceedingly well). We need to shake off that particular mental strait-jacket in order to progress down the genuine orchestral/chamber music route.

As an illustration of what could well be possible, here is a short excerpt of some original incidental music for a performance of 'Twelfth Night' written and performed by my son Simon (piano) and myself (English concertina). It's definitely not traditional.
Twelfth Night: Opening Music.

There's no reason why a melodeon couldn't be used in a similar non-traditional way. I am aware that Play&Teach of this parish is writing original tunes and this is a great start (:). But where are the sonatas and concertos for melodeon? How do we persuade composers and orchestras/chamber groups to use it?

Nice discussion, please.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 10:48:58 AM by Steve_freereeder »
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Jack Campin

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Re: Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2017, 12:47:39 AM »

A bandoneon is a sort of melodeon, no?  What about Piazzolla?

However, a bandoneon is sort of standardized - a composer writing for it knows they won't hit totally unexpected limitations.  Melodeons come in so many varieties that you'd have to be very familiar with what was available before you composed the first note.  One thing I could see happening would be for a composer to get something specially made for them - Ligeti did that for an equally nonstandard instrument when he specified exactly what kind of ocarinas to use for the quartet in his piano concerto.  Then a player would most likely hire the right one.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2017, 01:57:41 AM »

A bandoneon is a sort of melodeon, no?  What about Piazzolla?
Yes - Piazzolla's music and especially his use of bandoneon is one of the exceptions which had occurred to me too. But Piazzolla was also a master of the  bandoneon anyway, so that instrument was in with an advantage from the start.

I love Piazzolla's music and although it is based around a dance music 'tradition', his compositions are so original that they can be considered to have completely pushed the boundaries into another musical place.
Adios Nonino written for his deceased father.

However, let's not get carried away. I'd like to focus on melodeons if possible!

Quote
However, a bandoneon is sort of standardized - a composer writing for it knows they won't hit totally unexpected limitations.  Melodeons come in so many varieties that you'd have to be very familiar with what was available before you composed the first note. 
I think the melodeon is standardised too, within fairly well-defined limits. The variables are mainly (a) the keys, e.g. D/G, C/F, G/C, plus the semitoned-tuned boxes; (b) the voices available - MM, MML, etc. and (c) the number of rows and accidentals available. A composer would need to be familiar with these variables and/or be a player anyway.
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Pearse Rossa

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Re: Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2017, 11:03:40 AM »

As an illustration of what could well be possible, here is a short excerpt of some original incidental music for a performance of 'Twelfth Night' written and performed by my son Simon (piano) and myself (English concertina). It's definitely not traditional.
Twelfth Night: Opening Music.

That is lovely.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2017, 11:18:32 AM »

Twelfth Night: Opening Music.
That is lovely.
Thanks, Pearse!  (:)
I think it would also work on a melodeon with just a single M voice selected, or MM if it was tuned with a very light tremolo.

Edited to correct typo!  :|bl
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 02:10:51 PM by Steve_freereeder »
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Roger Howard

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Re: Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2017, 12:34:57 PM »

As an illustration of what could well be possible, here is a short excerpt of some original incidental music for a performance of 'Twelfth Night' written and performed by my son Simon (piano) and myself (English concertina). It's definitely not traditional.
Twelfth Night: Opening Music.

That is lovely.

Seconded. Very atmospheric, and just the right mood to lead into the opening scene. Congratulations to Simon!

Roger
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2017, 01:56:37 PM »

Ditto!
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Re: Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2017, 02:25:59 PM »


As an illustration of what could well be possible, here is a short excerpt of some original incidental music... It's definitely not traditional.
Twelfth Night: Opening Music.

Nice discussion, please.

Beautiful music that is, clearly, not traditional but, it could easily sit comfortably in a folk music context, which can't be said for the mass of folk music presented in a classical fashion, which has been the habit of composers from way back. I can't put my finger on exactly what it is, but it has a quality I really like, that the normal run of  "classicised" folk music doesn't.
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playandteach

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Re: Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2017, 04:16:47 PM »

One thing I could see happening would be for a composer to get something specially made for them - Ligeti did that for an equally nonstandard instrument when he specified exactly what kind of ocarinas to use for the quartet in his piano concerto.  Then a player would most likely hire the right one.
I've played that piece with Ligeti and the violin concerto also (I seem to remember) has clarinets doubling ocarinas, and it was a right pain because we all ended up with different pitched instruments and we didn't know if the score was a transposing score or at pitch. That's an issue where you write incredibly complex clarinet techniques requiring specialists, and add another instrument as an bolt on, which also requires a specialist.

In my experience, pieces written for unusual instruments (in the orchestral setting - I don't think we can call them orchestral instruments even when they are used in an orchestral situation) are usually written for a specific player, and with constant checking with that player about technical questions. This might be what the instrument can or can't do, but it also might be what the players particular strengths are.
It's probably why Paganini didn't play Harold in Italy - insufficient cross checking had led to a viola part he wasn't interested in playing. And also why the Piazzolla repertoire works so well, is that the specialist is also the composer / arranger.
I've played quite a bit of music for films, where there is a harmonica, or a particular type of Chinese flute. The result is perfectly fine for a moment of scene setting, but the lack of true understanding of the instrument's potential would make for unrewarding music in longer works.
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Anahata

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Re: Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2017, 05:19:57 PM »

I think the melodeon is standardised too, within fairly well-defined limits. The variables are mainly (a) the keys, e.g. D/G, C/F, G/C, plus the semitoned-tuned boxes; (b) the voices available - MM, MML, etc. and (c) the number of rows and accidentals available. A composer would need to be familiar with these variables and/or be a player anyway.

My guess is that most composers would go for a semitone box. Vaughan Williams and many others have written concertos for harmonica, and they all chose chromatic harmonica (except for one by Howard Levy for 10-hole, and I've only just found out about that)

The classical music world generally expects fully chromatic instruments, unless you go back to things like early horn and trumpet concertos before they had valves.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2017, 06:05:33 PM »

A great idea to resurrect this one Steve!  There's some amazing playing here, including your own composition.  Beautiful stuff.  Regarding the use of an orchestra to back a traditional Irish band, yes, I agree, it's not perhaps what we had in mind, but it seems to work OK (personally, I noticed the trad musicians had more feel than the orchestra, but never mind).

A lot of bandoneon music is indeed translatable to a large box in the appropriate key - I've had a go at Piazzola's Libertango, for example (Am played on a DGAcc box), and yes, it can certainly be done.  I see no reason why composers shouldn't think in terms of writing any music in any key, and let box players with the necessary musical skills and a box tuned around that key, play it.  OK, it will be a pretty expensive exercise to cover all the keys, but perhaps not in comparison with the cost of other orchestral instruments.

I also think that the point playandteach makes about lack of understanding of potential, is probably crucial.  It is perhaps up to box players, for example on this forum, to demonstrate what the instrument can achieve.
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Grape Ape

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Re: Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2017, 07:32:18 PM »

Melodeons playing chamber music?

This seems to fit the bill:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TwOK7fSs-As
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2017, 07:38:45 PM »

All very well-played stuff - but am I alone in thinking the wet tuning rather destroys the attempts at subtlety?
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playandteach

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Re: Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2017, 07:53:15 PM »

I've never got on with wet tuning in any situation. But for me an accordion choir isn't doing anything other than using classical music to create an ensemble opportunity for what is primarily a stand alone instrument.
If I were writing something to include the melodeon, I'd think first about blends of sounds - something like: do I want the melodeon to blend with a bassoon, clarinet or contrast with something like a string section sound.
I'd also consider whether I wanted the genre to replicate the trad setting of the melodeon or add a new sonority to 'classical' ensemble music.
As someone else pointed out the Sharon Shannon example is a showcase for the trad skills - revering the playing by supporting it with instruments associated with art music - much as sax players Phil Woods and Jan Gabarek did with their crossover music. Phil Woods is a giant, but I think the Gabarek set up worked better - combining string quartet with soprano sax, but elevated by the church music setting that neither group could claim as their standard genre.
So, maybe the route should be something out of genre. Minimalism! If I were to write a piece of minimalist music for melodeon ensemble would anyone be interested in playing it sometime?
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Grape Ape

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Re: Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2017, 08:01:57 PM »

P&T, by your definitions, wouldn’t Stephane Delicq perhaps be an example?
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playandteach

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Re: Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2017, 08:03:50 PM »

Despite loving his music, I don't really know enough of what came before to know if his was a step outside of the existing genre. Also I've really only played his tunes, rather than listened to the recordings, so I'm not fully aware of the ensemble blends or part-writing.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2017, 08:23:55 PM »

Just catching up: congratulations Steve and Simon, beautiful stuff and thank you for sharing!
Q
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 07:34:15 AM by Thrupenny Bit »
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Re: Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2017, 10:11:11 PM »

All very well-played stuff - but am I alone in thinking the wet tuning rather destroys the attempts at subtlety?

It's not wet all the time. If you watch the lead player (the girl on the left of the conductor) especially, she's switching registrations all over the place. I suspect the tremolo setting is intended to represent violins (typically played with vibrato in Rossini), and the single reeds or clean octaves are for wind parts. So it's obviously quite deliberate, and while a tremolo setting doesn't sound exactly like a violin, making some sort of change of tone will fit in better with the composer's orchestration.

Anyway, I thought that was a very fine demonstration of well trained musicians putting lots of very detailed dynamics and phrasing into a piece of classical music in just the right way, and not in the way that folk music is typically played. Just what this thread was about!

Mind you, a good CBA player could do it almost all on one instrument...

ETA:
PS just followed the "and there's more:..." link - well, there's nothing subtle there, but I wouldn't call that classical or chamber music, just typical Steirische harmonika Oom-pah band music. Perhaps Grape Ape meant this one (on the same page)

« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 10:34:35 PM by Anahata »
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Re: Melodeon as an orchestral or chamber music instrument?
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2017, 10:24:41 PM »

Steve, I really enjoyed the piece you played with your son. Have listened to it several times now. It really is quite beautiful!

ETA: I meant that one and others if you scroll down
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 03:18:26 AM by Grape Ape »
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