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Author Topic: Question about B/C vs C#/D  (Read 3858 times)

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Joel Summers

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Question about B/C vs C#/D
« on: October 16, 2017, 02:27:36 AM »

I'm looking to pick up my first box and was going between B/C and C#/D.  I've read some old threads where they were saying that the B/C box was more popular.  But again, those were old threads. 

I do tend to see a lot more B/C boxes for sale than I do C#/D.  I live in a suburb outside of Chicago and I don't think there are many teachers or groups out this way, otherwise I would see what their consensus is.  Other than playing in a single row, versus cross row, does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks!

-Joel
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boxcall

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Re: Question about B/C vs C#/D
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2017, 02:48:57 AM »

Hi Joel,
Welcome to the forum.
Tough question to answer and I'm no expert on either system but from what I know is B/C is a good system for smooth playing once you master it. It takes longer to do that for most people, you may be an exception. You also might find more teachers and tutorials available for that system and possibly more boxes. The C#/D is also a good system which I believe is seeing a rise in popularity and may be easier to learn, also there are plenty of boxes around and teachers of this system.
I won't say more for I'll probably get into trouble for giving poor advise.
Anyway, Good luck with your search
Others will be along to give you a better picture of the two systems, pros and cons.

Edit to add: there's always a one row in D >:E
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 02:53:00 AM by boxcall »
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MarioP

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Re: Question about B/C vs C#/D
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2017, 03:24:15 AM »

I would make just a comment stick to what you are listening to. Search what key are those songs you like recorded in? Or if you already look up to an existing accordionist or group that has an accordion player search what keys are his accordions tuned in? Was kinder my forte to reach a decision on which key I wanted to start with or get next after my first one.

Enjoy the madness if you ask my honest question get them all!

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Theo

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Re: Question about B/C vs C#/D
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2017, 09:13:00 AM »

For teachers in Your area get in touch with Chicago Old Town School of Folk Music. https://www.oldtownschool.org/
They advertise classes on their web site.  They are a big organisation and I expect they would have information about teachers offering private lessons too.

And the Irish American Heritage Center
https://irish-american.org/
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 09:29:54 AM by Theo »
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richard.fleming

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Re: Question about B/C vs C#/D
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2017, 09:44:52 AM »

The issue I think is not which is 'better' but that they represent and are also more suitable for different styles of playing, at least in the world of Irish traditional music. At the most extreme compare Joe Burke with Jacky Daly. There are  also 2 excellent You tube videos eg   https://youtu.be/PgZQcfMiyAg comparing the two systems at a technical level which do not if I remember rightly touch on what is an almost ideological divide between the two systems. The trend towards C#D represents a return to what some see as an earlier style of playing, sometimes known as  'press and draw', a style maybe with some of the vigour and lift of the one-row boxes the Irish refer to as melodeons rather than the smooth and highly ornamented playing of some 2-row button accordion players.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 12:37:26 PM by richard.fleming »
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Old Paolo Sopranis in C#/D and D/D#

george garside

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Re: Question about B/C vs C#/D
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2017, 09:56:14 AM »

as a BC ( and BCC#) player but not of ITM  the only ?advantage I can see of the C#D is that tunes in D can be played mostly 'on the row' perhaps giving more of   the old 'one row 4 stop' effect.   On a BC two notes of the D scale are on the B row  but the D scale is in reality very easy to get the hang of. Also  there is a certain illogical logicality in that the C  row can be thought of as the 'white' notes on a piano and the B row as containing the 'black notes'  and looked at that way  there is a logical relationship between eg FCGDAE. 

george
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deltasalmon

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Re: Question about B/C vs C#/D
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2017, 11:24:06 AM »

I started on B/C and then switched to C#/D after around a year. There are players who can manage both but the B/C alone was too much for me. I agree that there is a lot more information available for B/C and a lot more B/C players than C#/D players.

For me the C#/D made more sense because it was basically playing a one-row D and then having an accidental/helper row. So in the beginning it was a lot easier to just stay mostly on that one row and down the line as I got more comfortable I could add in the accidentals and reversals that the other row had to offer. I think in the end once you know either system well it doesn't matter but as a beginner the C#/D is more intuitive.

As an example of how it's simpler in the beginning. Playing the first octave D major scale from D to d is just four buttons all on the inside row on the C#/D. Where as on the B/C the same scale covers 7 buttons, 5 on the inside row and 2 on the outside row.
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george garside

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Re: Question about B/C vs C#/D
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2017, 11:39:03 AM »

the D scale on the D row may only need 4 buttons but involves 8   reversals. D scale on a BC uses 7 buttons but only requires 3 reversals

''swings and roundabouts!"

george
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Theo

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Re: Question about B/C vs C#/D
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2017, 12:11:04 PM »

What George says is true about reversals, but which is more appropriate for the music you want to play is an entirely separate question.  It's what Richard Fleming was saying too.  So base your choice on some combination of which Irish styles you like and on who you can find to give you lessons.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Re: Question about B/C vs C#/D
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2017, 12:35:13 PM »

the D scale on the D row may only need 4 buttons but involves 8 reversals.
Surely not!
On any diatonic box, an octave scale 'on the row' only needs 4 bellows reversals or waggles. The slash "/" indicates the waggles:
Push/Pull, Push/Pull, Push/Pull, Pull/Push.

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Theo

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Re: Question about B/C vs C#/D
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2017, 12:38:21 PM »

You also change bellows directions between buttons 1 and 2 and 2 and 3. So I make that 6 reversals for a scale on the row.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Question about B/C vs C#/D
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2017, 12:52:13 PM »

Theo is right as usual!  ;D

Let's try again!
Push/Pull / Push/Pull / Push/Pull Pull/Push

That's six slashes = 6 reversals.
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Stiamh

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Re: Question about B/C vs C#/D
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2017, 01:16:51 PM »

In fact you can do it in five: push/pull pull-pull / push/pull pull/push...  :P

I would agree with George that it is "swings and roundabouts" but (believe it or not, George) playing Irish tunes involves more than playing up and down the D scale. So Joel I think that basing your decision on a statistic like that is not a good idea.

I could also point out that, to a total beginner, bellows changes might appear to be something that it is advantageous to avoid. But of course they are actually the soul of the instrument, and as you develop good technique changing the bellows direction is hardly more difficult than changing from breathing in to breathing out through your nose! Having to cover more ground on the keyboard poses at least as great a challenge as dealing with multiple bellows changes, and in fact more IMO.

For B/C you have a very good resource in the Chicago area: John Williams, who is a brilliant musician and superb box player. A friend who has taken flute lessons with him tells me he is a very good teacher, also. One of the resources you might look into if you choose B/C is his tuition DVD (be warned, it covers about three years of progress in one hour!).

Be warned also that either system is hard. You certainly won't get very far on the B/C without sustained dedication to the instrument. You might get a teeny bit further on C#/D without quite the same level of dedication, but barely. If you want to become a decent player on either instrument you have to be prepared to put in serious time.

Make your choice, find all the help you can in the early stages, and stick with it. :)

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Re: Question about B/C vs C#/D
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2017, 02:02:51 PM »

I started on B/C and then switched to C#/D after around a year.

Just a thought but, I've met a good few players who switched from B/C to C#/D, but not one who went the other way...

squeezeboxgoddess

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Re: Question about B/C vs C#/D
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2017, 02:32:02 PM »

Why not D/D# ?

I play this system and the thing I love about it is how easy it is to learn tunes in Eb, Bb and C minor... great keys for playing with horns. But it's also great for the trad Irish keys. The most famous trad player of this system was Joe Cooley... since Mr. Cooley lived in San Francisco for many years, a few of our California-born Irish players also play D/D# boxes. There's a few videos of me playing tunes in this system on the internet so if you like what you see below, there are plenty more examples. I play many styles including Irish, blues, and Cajun music.

Here's me playing Cooley's Reel: https://youtu.be/q0P0EvJOfRQ

I used to mostly play on the outside D row and borrow notes... the best advantage of the system is that the note "D" appears in both rows, on the push and the draw... as does the note "G". Very very useful for playing double-stop ornaments.
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george garside

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Re: Question about B/C vs C#/D
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2017, 03:27:23 PM »

Theo is right as usual!  ;D

Let's try again!
Push/Pull / Push/Pull / Push/Pull Pull/Push

That's six slashes = 6 reversals.

agreed!
george
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Jack Campin

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Re: Question about B/C vs C#/D
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2017, 07:16:35 PM »

Why doesn't anyone seem to use Bb/A?

That way you'd have two keys both of which are fairly useful without accidentals, and neither would need many off-the-row touches to cover other common keys.

Works for clarinets.
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george garside

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Re: Question about B/C vs C#/D
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2017, 07:48:17 PM »

is this heading for 'semitoneists' having several boxes for different jobs as do many 'forthapartists'

for those who want to stick to the small light 2 row semitone boxes  (rather than go BCC#)  all that's needed is a BC for the sharp keys and a CC# upon which to do exactly the same for the flat keys.

thinking about it a CC# double ray with the 12 stradella set up for the flat stuff  is something I might have a dabble at.  Anybody got a double ray bc +stradella with knackered reeds going cheap!

george
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mory

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Re: Question about B/C vs C#/D
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2017, 11:12:37 PM »

I started on B/C and then switched to C#/D after around a year.

Just a thought but, I've met a good few players who switched from B/C to C#/D, but not one who went the other way...
Damien Mullane told me he started on C#D then went over to BC and yes he is playing CC# a lot of the time now. All the Best mory
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george garside

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Re: Question about B/C vs C#/D
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2017, 11:33:55 PM »

Jimmy Shand  made some recordings  of slow airs  using a hohner Erica CC# box  fettled  by Jimmy Jnr with Italian reeds and morino pallets

george
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