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Author Topic: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano  (Read 5281 times)

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blafleur

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Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« on: October 20, 2017, 01:45:45 PM »

Having used Harmonikas Dix and A Mano Professional reeds, I'm curious about the Nastrino reeds.  Has anyone used them and can compare difference of them and the Professionals?  Near as I can tell the difference from their website is they are cut from two different directions of the metal band.  Curious how this would affect tone and response. 

diatonix

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Re: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2017, 07:16:47 PM »

Basically, that's how all Italian A Mano reeds are cut: in pairs as Siamese twins joined at their feet. The width of the steel ribbon is the same as that of the foot of the reeds, which explains the  blue edges on both sides.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 07:20:58 PM by diatonix »
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blafleur

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Re: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2017, 08:50:55 PM »

Basically, that's how all Italian A Mano reeds are cut: in pairs as Siamese twins joined at their feet. The width of the steel ribbon is the same as that of the foot of the reeds, which explains the  blue edges on both sides.

In their email response to me, they said the nastrino are made in the "Italy tradition".  For the Professional, they said, "tongues are cutting from tape of voice steel side by side". 

I'll check the other Professionals I have, if I'm understanding that correctly, the sides of the base of the reed should be shiny and not blue.

Diatonix, can you speculate on what effect, if any, cutting across the band as opposed to the length of it would have on sound or response?

diatonix

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Re: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2017, 09:09:01 PM »

Italian "Nastro", or with its diminutive "nastrino", means "ribbon". Their "professional" reeds seem to be the Czech equivalent of the Italian TAM ("Tipo a mano" = "type as if hand made"). A bit confusing to those familiar with Binci A Mano reeds embossed with PROFESSIONAL which are in a totally different league...
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 09:12:38 PM by diatonix »
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diatonix

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Re: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2017, 09:16:09 PM »

Diatonix, can you speculate on what effect, if any, cutting across the band as opposed to the length of it would have on sound or response?

The only cut "across the band" is the one that separates the two twin reeds.
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blafleur

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Re: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2017, 02:17:36 PM »

This is the explanation they sent me, unless I'm looking at it wrong, doesn't it look like the Professional is cut across a wide band of steel?

blafleur

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Re: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2017, 02:19:18 PM »

And this for the Nastrino.

squeezy

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Re: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2017, 11:03:04 AM »

I've long known about these different ways that the reeds are cut from the steel, and I understand how this would make the Nastrino way more expensive as it wastes more steel.  What nobody has ever told me is exactly how this changes the sound and response of the reed and whether it is any better than the other way round. 

I presume any differences arise from the way in which the steel is actually manufactured in to the ribbons - but again I don't know how that is done!
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John MacKenzie (Cugiok)

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Re: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2017, 11:30:06 AM »

As I understand it, metal has a "grain" in the same way as wood does. Rolling/extruding metal, flattens that grain in the direction of working. So if you take a strip of rolled metal, you get a shorter grain, by cutting across the way,than you do by cutting it lengthwise. What effect this has on the sonic quality of the resulting strips, I don't know, but reed makers obviously have a preference.

Sir John
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Rog

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Re: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2017, 01:49:51 PM »

I often wonder if a sound analyzer would be a good tool to read/represent reeds...esp as a way to compare reed 'quality', at least the audio output part of the quality. I've not seen a thread on here about it. Dirk's tuner gives a spectrum reading. I've not got around to comparing a good reed as opposed to an average one. The way a reed is made is all very well, but the proof surely is in the sound and the responsiveness? Plus of course it's about combining the sound from two or more reeds.

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Re: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2017, 02:14:21 PM »

I often wonder if a sound analyzer would be a good tool to read/represent reeds...esp as a way to compare reed 'quality', at least the audio output part of the quality. I've not seen a thread on here about it. Dirk's tuner gives a spectrum reading. I've not got around to comparing a good reed as opposed to an average one. The way a reed is made is all very well, but the proof surely is in the sound and the responsiveness? Plus of course it's about combining the sound from two or more reeds.
I don't think it would necessarily give you meaningful results because the sound 'quality' represented by the harmonic spectrum would be modified (possibly significantly) by the surrounding melodeon materials, dimensions, air-space volume, etc. The same reeds in a different box might give you a completely different spectrum. For example, the same Voci Armoniche TAM grade reeds sound different in a Castagnari Lily, Hascy or Handry.

To use a sound analyser to compare reeds you would probably need to build a test bed (similar to the tuning jig used by a reed maker) where the reed could be sounded on its own; no other structure around it.
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playandteach

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Re: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2017, 02:24:17 PM »

I tried taking out the low reed block on my 3 voice DG yesterday. The reeds sounded brighter and I thought at first that they were louder. Put the block back in and realised the sound was more complex, not just fewer upper frequencies but with added warmth. And they responded better to more air than without the low reed block in place. Do low reeds vibrate a little in sympathy? Or is it just the reduced volume and obstruction causing the complexities? Not a thread drift but supporting Steve F's comment.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2017, 02:35:00 PM »

(1) Do low reeds vibrate a little in sympathy? (2) Or is it just the reduced volume and obstruction causing the complexities?

(1)
They probably do but only to a minimal extent, and since no air is actually passing through the reeds I don't think it is going to contribute anything audible to the overall sound.

(2)
Much more likely. The different 'volume and obstruction' will almost certainly be absorbing or reinforcing some of the harmonics and modifying the sound spectrum in the process. Removing a reed block will also modify the pitch of the remaining reeds by as much as a few cents, which is why it is so vital that final fine tuning adjustments are always carried out with all the reed blocks in situ.
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triskel

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Re: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2017, 02:48:03 PM »

I've long known about these different ways that the reeds are cut from the steel, and I understand how this would make the Nastrino way more expensive as it wastes more steel.

I think the saving is more in being able to grind the profile lengthways into a broad ribbon of steel, which then turns into a whole row of reed tongues (ground precisely to produce a given note) when you slice them off across it, instead of laboriously profiling every single (individual) "a mano" reed tongue.

In the aftermath of WW2 a reed-making couple from Czechoslovakia (they wrote to me, back in the late '80s) came to work for Wheatstone's, the concertina makers in London, and they seem to have brought the former, precision grinding, technique with them. It's what Sid Watkins (the man operating the grinding machine) is doing at the beginning of the Pathe newsreel Concertina Factory Aka Concert In A Factory (1961). Prior to the introduction of this technology, making them much easier/cheaper to produce, all steel reeds in English-made concertinas were made by hand (though brass reeds could be profiled on a planing machine).

Rog

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Re: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2017, 04:31:38 PM »

I often wonder if a sound analyzer would be a good tool to read/represent reeds...esp as a way to compare reed 'quality', at least the audio output part of the quality. I've not seen a thread on here about it. Dirk's tuner gives a spectrum reading. I've not got around to comparing a good reed as opposed to an average one. The way a reed is made is all very well, but the proof surely is in the sound and the responsiveness? Plus of course it's about combining the sound from two or more reeds.
I don't think it would necessarily give you meaningful results because the sound 'quality' represented by the harmonic spectrum would be modified (possibly significantly) by the surrounding melodeon materials, dimensions, air-space volume, etc. The same reeds in a different box might give you a completely different spectrum. For example, the same Voci Armoniche TAM grade reeds sound different in a Castagnari Lily, Hascy or Handry.

To use a sound analyser to compare reeds you would probably need to build a test bed (similar to the tuning jig used by a reed maker) where the reed could be sounded on its own; no other structure around it.
I'm aware we are a bit off topic...but without some sort of measurement, whether the reeds are in or out of a box, we are left with...'it's sounds very nice' and 'these are more punchy than those'.

Steve_freereeder

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Re: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2017, 05:41:30 PM »

I'm aware we are a bit off topic...but without some sort of measurement, whether the reeds are in or out of a box, we are left with...'it's sounds very nice' and 'these are more punchy than those'.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be worth measuring; just that you need to be careful about your methodology to ensure you are making valid comparisons from reed to reed and from instrument to instrument.
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blafleur

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Re: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2017, 09:01:59 PM »

I've long known about these different ways that the reeds are cut from the steel, and I understand how this would make the Nastrino way more expensive as it wastes more steel.  What nobody has ever told me is exactly how this changes the sound and response of the reed and whether it is any better than the other way round. 

I presume any differences arise from the way in which the steel is actually manufactured in to the ribbons - but again I don't know how that is done!

If I understood the pictures correctly, it looks like two different bands of steel, the Professional cut across a wide band, and the Nastrino cut along a narrow band.  If that so, seems cutting across would waste more steel because of the different lengths, unless that's offset by the different widths in the Nastrino.  Of course, I'll be ordering some Nastrinos to try out and see if there's any difference, but was curious about the two different methods of cutting reeds.  A dark science, that is.

triskel

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Re: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2017, 09:54:46 PM »

If I understood the pictures correctly, it looks like two different bands of steel, the Professional cut across a wide band, and the Nastrino cut along a narrow band.  If that so, seems cutting across would waste more steel because of the different lengths, unless that's offset by the different widths in the Nastrino.

Firstly, just in case anybody gets confused by this, Harmonikas "Professional" are produced like high-grade tipo a mano reeds, but they're not a mano like Binci "Professional".

Secondly, wasting a bit of steel isn't any big deal - the advantage is getting all those rough-tuned reed tongues ground, and ready to slice off...

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Re: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2017, 06:05:24 PM »

As I understand it, metal has a "grain" in the same way as wood does. Rolling/extruding metal, flattens that grain in the direction of working. So if you take a strip of rolled metal, you get a shorter grain, by cutting across the way,than you do by cutting it lengthwise. What effect this has on the sonic quality of the resulting strips, I don't know, but reed makers obviously have a preference.

Sir John

I'm afraid that for high-carbon spring steel (which is what reeds are made from) this is pretty much a myth, which keeps getting repeated by people who don't understand metallurgy ;-)

This steel rolled out hot into thin strips and then rapidly quenched to give a very hard martensite grain structure -- see here:

http://steelcorp.com/hardenntemperedsteel.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martensite
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_steel

The martensite grains which are what makes it so hard (and brittle) form throughout the thickness when the strip is cooled, and are nothing to do with the direction of rolling, so the properties of the strip are the same in both directions. Depending on the exact steel chosen it may be annealed to slightly reduce the hardness/brittleness, but this also has exactly the same effect in both directions.

Comments about stresses being built up inside the steel when the strips are cut up are also very unlikely to be true, it's very difficult to get any inbuilt stress into spring steel, which is why clock springs always want to straighten out and reeds don't want to be bent :-)

It's just possible that the narrower strips used for "A Mano" reeds are more carefully made or higher quality simply because they're a lot more expensive for a given area of strip, but my suspicion is that if "A Mano" reeds are actually better it's for one reason -- they cost more so more care is taken during manufacture, with better fitting/assembly and consistency. In other words they're better *because* they're more expensive, which means more care and attention can be lavished on each one, rather than because of any material superiority.





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Re: Harmonikas Nastrino A Mano
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2017, 06:50:04 PM »

Following your logic.. is it possible that the "dural" range of reeds could be more exactly fitted and tuned to the same degree as a more expensive reed and potentially yield better than "usual" ( for dural) results. ?

I have played many fine boxes with DURAL quality reeds. Also played many boxes with Binci Pros and other high quality reeds that have been simply acceptable.
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