Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6   Go Down

Author Topic: How many can sight read on the melodeon?  (Read 12855 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Thrupenny Bit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6831
  • happily squeezing away in Devon
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2017, 06:58:15 PM »

It took me a little while to realise how useful abc really is.
Like Helena says, download the free programme, cut and paste a tune notation and you can look at the dots whilst it's playing the tune. Therefore combining sight reading and ear learning.

There are several options. I have abc explorer and easy abc on my PC, Tunebook on my iPad and trad musician on my android phone. I tend to do the sorting or annotating on PC, then taking a tip from Helena, put the tune file on Drop box and pick it up on my devices that are a bit more portable.
Just download, cut and paste and that's it!
When into it a bit more you can tweak, transpose  or generate your own tunes, but grabbing tunes from places and playing just needs good old cut and paste!
Q
Logged
Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Mike Mccarthy

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #61 on: November 09, 2017, 07:01:02 PM »

I do like the idea of something that will play the tune, even though I can align the notes with the dots on a fiddle, I still struggle getting the tune right if it's not something really simple.
Logged
Unbranded East German box in GD, sounds pretty good to my untutored ears.

Mike Carney

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 701
  • In sunny Sheffield
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #62 on: November 09, 2017, 07:18:51 PM »

Dot reading is to me  an aid to playing by ear  but not a be all and end all in itself  as once I get the hang of a tune I no longer need the dots.
Well, that's fabulous George, as that is exactly my approach, so I must be, as you say, someone who plays by ear. And I always thought you meant something completely different.
Mike  (:)
Logged

Bob Ellis

  • Hero?....Where's my medal, then?
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2878
  • Ain't I cute?
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #63 on: November 09, 2017, 08:33:59 PM »

I'm not sure that I would agree entirely with George and Mike's definition of playing by ear. I will learn some tunes by ear and learn others from the dots, but when I play them I am playing from memory whether I learnt the tune by ear or not. The only time I truly play a tune by ear is when I pick up a new tune at a session that I haven't heard before. However, there is zero chance that I will remember that new tune at the end of a night during which many other tunes have also been played. If I am going to commit it to memory, I'll need to look it up at home and either learn it from the dots or from a recording. But, as I said before, having learnt it, when I play it again, I am playing from memory, not by ear.

Since I have come late to this thread, I should say that I can sight-read easy tunes in D or G after a fashion, but not more difficult tunes. Sight reading for the melodeon is more difficult than for many other instruments because we have to decide for more than half the notes whether to play them on the D row or the G row and we have to work out on the fly a bass line that harmonises. Even when I can sight-read a tune, I almost invariably change it if I put it into my repertoire because the fingering pattern and bass line worked out on the fly is rarely the best one available.
Logged
Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6359
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #64 on: November 09, 2017, 09:35:17 PM »

I'd starting to  think anyone who wants to learn to read music should learn to sing at sight. That's pure reading, and  you'll then be able to play (on any instrument you can play by ear) from music.
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh band: www.barleycoteband.co.uk

Jesse Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 726
  • Buffalo, NY, USA
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #65 on: November 09, 2017, 10:17:29 PM »

I'd starting to  think anyone who wants to learn to read music should learn to sing at sight. That's pure reading, and  you'll then be able to play (on any instrument you can play by ear) from music.
I think learning to sing (or lilt) a tune from notes is a great skill. Actually, whether I'm learning a tune from written music or by ear, the first step is usually to learn it well enough to sing or hum it.
Logged
Hohner Pokerwork D/G (x2!), Hohner one row four stops in D and C, Hohner Presswood C/F.

Mike Mccarthy

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #66 on: November 09, 2017, 10:20:57 PM »

Not so sure that is my issue. I can read OK on fiddle (and by proxy mandolin) and kinda OK on guitar, my issue is connecting the dots on the page with the correct button and the correct bellows direction. Don't think learning to sing a tune will help this.
Logged
Unbranded East German box in GD, sounds pretty good to my untutored ears.

Tone Dumb Greg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4929
    • Dartmoor Border Morris
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #67 on: November 09, 2017, 11:21:48 PM »

Of course the other side of this is having the ability to write music down. Whilst I manage reading the dots quite well, even with the help of musescore I have problems transforming my usually very simple compositions into a meaningful score. I do wonder whether this would be easier with ABC ?
Of course I could always put some time into learning more music theory - but somehow playing always takes precedence !
J

ABC knocks score editors for six when it comes to melodeon, fiddle, mandolin etc tunes. Really. It turns a chore into a quick and easy experience. It probably helps to have a reasonable grasp of basic musical theory first, though. Sounds like you already have this.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 11:26:09 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
Logged
Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

boxcall

  • You got to love it!!!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1755
  • Accordion to who?
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #68 on: November 10, 2017, 12:09:00 AM »

I'd starting to  think anyone who wants to learn to read music should learn to sing at sight. That's pure reading, and  you'll then be able to play (on any instrument you can play by ear) from music.
I think learning to sing (or lilt) a tune from notes is a great skill. Actually, whether I'm learning a tune from written music or by ear, the first step is usually to learn it well enough to sing or hum it.

Not so sure that is my issue. I can read OK on fiddle (and by proxy mandolin) and kinda OK on guitar, my issue is connecting the dots on the page with the correct button and the correct bellows direction. Don't think learning to sing a tune will help this.

I don't see how it could hurt and it may be helpful. I'm talking about Anahata's advice reading to sing.
My melodeon teacher said you should be able to hum or whistle a tune to play it.
And of course you need to know how to find the notes on the box which comes down to practice and just doing. Can you sight read the music slowly? I can't sight read that well, at least not fast enough but do sight read at the start of learning new tunes ( so slowly). I'm trying to break from reading and just playing what I'm hearing, usually getting some notes wrong from how the sheet music is notated but not necessarily sounding wrong.
This could also be the brain just isn't good at doing both tasks which I think is my problem. Not the case for everybody.
Logged
Hohner 1040 C, Beltuna one row four stop D, O'Byrne Dewitt/ Baldoni bros. D/C#, Paolo soprani "pepperpot" one row D

Tone Dumb Greg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4929
    • Dartmoor Border Morris
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #69 on: November 10, 2017, 12:43:29 AM »

Beware of coming to firm conclusions on what the tune sounds like just from the dots and playing it that way. It is surprisingly easy to invent a new, but inferior tune that uses the same dots and it's rare to find dots that are exactly how a tune is played. I like to have both dots and familiarity with how the tune sounds when played by someone who knows it, but how it sounds when played well is the most important.
Logged
Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

boxcall

  • You got to love it!!!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1755
  • Accordion to who?
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #70 on: November 10, 2017, 01:00:51 AM »

Agreed, I don't find dots that useful other than laying out the tune for my fingers and rely on how it's played / sounds more .
Logged
Hohner 1040 C, Beltuna one row four stop D, O'Byrne Dewitt/ Baldoni bros. D/C#, Paolo soprani "pepperpot" one row D

Steve_freereeder

  • Content Manager
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7511
  • MAD is inevitable. Keep Calm and Carry On
    • Lizzie Dripping
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #71 on: November 10, 2017, 01:37:32 AM »

ABC knocks score editors for six when it comes to melodeon, fiddle, mandolin etc tunes. Really.
Really?

I use both ABC and MuseScore and both are very useful. I agree that ABC is excellent for representing music in the form of plain text strings which can easily be shared by any users, independent of operating system platform without any additional software, which is one of the reasons it was originally designed. It is even possible to notate tunes 'on the fly' on a back of an envelope/beer mat/fag packet, etc. Experienced users with knowledge of the correct code and syntax can also make ABC do quite sophisticated music formatting, e.g. ornaments, dynamics, fonts, page layout stuff, etc. But the more complex the music becomes, the clunkier and less intuitive ABC becomes for notating things easily and correctly.

However, music score editors such as MuseScore (freeware, btw, available for Windows, Mac OS, iOS, Linux) are ultimately far more powerful and once the basics are learned, are just as easy to use to create beautifully formatted scores, with no extra knowledge or thinking needed to add all those extra symbols, chords, repeats, dynamics, multi-voice parts, etc. You want a dynamic mark? crescendo hairpin? double bar line? change of time or key sig? Drag it from the menu palette and plonk it where needed. Not quite in the right place? Drag it with your mouse cursor. Need to edit the pitch of a note? Move it with your mouse or arrow keys and hear the pitch change as you move it. And so on...
File sizes are tiny, typically kb, even for quite large scores.

In summary, ABC is good - of course it is, otherwise thousands of people wouldn't be using it. But let's not pretend that a score editor such as MuseScore is somehow 'inferior' - I don't know why - perhaps because it can be used to notate a symphony and generate orchestral parts when all you might want is a single melody line 32-bar jig. In fact it actually does them both equally and very well, and lots more besides; and is no harder to learn than ABC.

In conclusion, I've attached a page from one of my Whitby (and Witney) intermediate melodeon workshops. It was created entirely and easily in MuseScore: notes, symbols, examples, text, layout, the lot. I think it would be very arduous and perhaps not even possible to do the same in ABC.
Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk

malcolmbebb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2609
  • In dampest Dorset, on the soggy south coast.
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #72 on: November 10, 2017, 07:17:43 AM »

I think it's fair to point out that Greg qualified his comment by constraining it to a few instruments for which most people have fairly simple requirements.

I rather suspect that most users don't know when, how or why you'd use the wonderful facilities of which you write, won't want to spend the time and effort to learn the tool, and find that they don't need a racing thoroughbred, even if free, when a small pony will do just fine.

Horses for courses. For Greg's use an ABC editor may indeed be the better tool, or certainly more appropriate. 
Logged
Dino BPII.
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire."

Thrupenny Bit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6831
  • happily squeezing away in Devon
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #73 on: November 10, 2017, 07:36:31 AM »

Over the last couple of weeks, I've started to assemble the repertoire of tunes I play into an abc file. It's just my playing tunes not the ton of others I've grabbed over time with a view to create an incipit file ( memory jogger or crib sheet ).
Point being, I realise that after putting in the notation I'm finding I'm inadvertently humming the tune from the dots as I'm typing it in, obviously wrapped up in what I'm doing and 'in the zone'.
Just finding the more I do, the better my sight reading  is becoming.
In reality, it's still not great, but it is getting better!
Q
Logged
Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Steve_freereeder

  • Content Manager
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7511
  • MAD is inevitable. Keep Calm and Carry On
    • Lizzie Dripping
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #74 on: November 10, 2017, 08:09:08 AM »

I think it's fair to point out that Greg qualified his comment by constraining it to a few instruments for which most people have fairly simple requirements.

I rather suspect that most users don't know when, how or why you'd use the wonderful facilities of which you write, won't want to spend the time and effort to learn the tool, and find that they don't need a racing thoroughbred, even if free, when a small pony will do just fine.

Horses for courses. For Greg's use an ABC editor may indeed be the better tool, or certainly more appropriate.

I think it's fair to point out that my remarks also state how good ABC is, and that I use it as a complement to MuseScore and vice versa. They can work together nicely, especially as MuseScore has an ABC import facility.

The 'wonderful facilities' of MuseScore are actually basic music notation necessities and they are there, ready for instant use, as and when required. MuseScore does not need any particular extra investment in time or effort to learn how to use successfully. If anything, it is more intuitive than ABC; there is no special syntax to learn. I would urge anyone who has not actually done so to try it sometime, then you will know. Horses for courses indeed. I completely concur with that. But I rather like the advantage of having the racing thoroughbred and pony combined seamlessly together, rather than just the pony on its own.
Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk

Steve_freereeder

  • Content Manager
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7511
  • MAD is inevitable. Keep Calm and Carry On
    • Lizzie Dripping
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #75 on: November 10, 2017, 08:56:32 AM »

Over the last couple of weeks, I've started to assemble the repertoire of tunes I play into an abc file. It's just my playing tunes not the ton of others I've grabbed over time with a view to create an incipit file ( memory jogger or crib sheet ).
Point being, I realise that after putting in the notation I'm finding I'm inadvertently humming the tune from the dots as I'm typing it in, obviously wrapped up in what I'm doing and 'in the zone'.
Just finding the more I do, the better my sight reading  is becoming.
In reality, it's still not great, but it is getting better!
It's often the case. By writing something down, whether it be music, poetry, lines of a drama script or maths formulae, it is one more way of getting something lodged into the brain. It was a well-known piece of exam revision advice back in my school and university days; re-write your lecture notes, preferably more than once. I'm not sure whether it is still advocated, but I certainly found it useful.

By writing out music, either long-hand or by ABC or (dare I say it ::) ) a score editor, it goes into the brain and I'm sure new neural pathways are formed which help associate the symbols on the page/screen with the actual sounds, and perhaps by extension, fingerings for whatever instrument you are using.

When I was a student (many years ago), one of my part-time jobs to supplement the cost of living in London was as a score copyist. Composers would send me an orchestral or band score and I would extract the individual parts and write them out, in those days physically with pen and ink on transparent plastic foils so that they could be copied on a diazo printer at a publishing house. The work involved doing all the relevant transposition, laying out the parts to make it easy for the musician to read, avoiding awkward page-turns, etc. I found that at the end of the job, I had a pretty good idea of what the music sounded like. On a couple of occasions I actually played the works which I'd transcribed and it was remarkable how much easier the copying process had made the learning, rehearsal and performance; much of the music was already there in the brain and somehow in the fingers too.
Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk

Thrupenny Bit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6831
  • happily squeezing away in Devon
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #76 on: November 10, 2017, 09:09:01 AM »

Steve, you've just reminded me, even now they have researched and realised university students learn better if they hand write lecture notes then type up later rather than simply word process them straight into a laptop when in the lecture.
I hadn't drawn the parallel between it and what I've observed in myself until you mentioned it, but it makes total sense.

You've just explained why you have such a grasp of music too, wow! If you had to pay for such training it would cost the earth!
Transcribing such scores would blow my mind, and way beyond my understanding but it has stood you in good stead in later life.
It's a funny old life we all have led, and richer for it....
cheers
Q
Logged
Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Tone Dumb Greg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4929
    • Dartmoor Border Morris
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #77 on: November 10, 2017, 09:14:33 AM »

ABC knocks score editors for six when it comes to melodeon, fiddle, mandolin etc tunes. Really.
Really?

Yes, Really, within the context in which I made the statement.

I am not talking about scoring orchestras here, but about a tool for noting down tunes that I come across, when out and about and tunes that are recommended on sites such as mel.net.

It really (and I mean really) is the business for this.

In theory you can write a complex score in abc but it would take a depth of knowledge and be of such a confusing complexity to follow, you wouldn't bother. However, if you want to score  a traditional dance tune with 1 to 4 voices and 1 or 2 lines on the stave, or note down a song melody and some verses and chords, it beats the pants off Musescore, Sybellius, Harmony and the rest of them.

I don't know if you can still get fag packets but, back in the day, if you came across a tune in a pub you could, literally, jot a usable score on the back of one, in moments. Next morning, or whenever, you could type it in minutes . Low and behold you've got a pdf score as good as you'll get from a graphic score editor.

Horses for courses.

Logged
Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

Lester

  • MADman
  • Mods and volunteers
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9109
  • Hohners'R'me
    • Lester's Melodeon Emporium and Tune-a-Rama
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #78 on: November 10, 2017, 09:28:24 AM »

Yes, Really, within the context in which I made the statement.

I am not talking about scoring orchestras here, but about a tool for noting down tunes that I come across, when out and about and tunes that are recommended on sites such as mel.net.

It really (and I mean really) is the business for this.

In theory you can write a complex score in abc but it would take a depth of knowledge and be of such a confusing complexity to follow, you wouldn't bother. However, if you want to score  a traditional dance tune with 1 to 4 voices and 1 or 2 lines on the stave, or note down a song melody and some verses and chords, it beats the pants off Musescore, Sybellius, Harmony and the rest of them.

I don't know if you can still get fag packets but, back in the day, if you came across a tune in a pub you could, literally, jot a usable score on the back of one, in moments. Next morning, or whenever, you could type it in minutes . Low and behold you've got a pdf score as good as you'll get from a graphic score editor.

Horses for courses.

Yes this  (:)

Steve_freereeder

  • Content Manager
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7511
  • MAD is inevitable. Keep Calm and Carry On
    • Lizzie Dripping
Re: How many can sight read on the melodeon?
« Reply #79 on: November 10, 2017, 09:29:04 AM »

... However, if you want to score  a traditional dance tune with 1 to 4 voices and 1 or 2 lines on the stave, or note down a song melody and some verses and chords, it beats the pants off Musescore, Sybellius, Harmony and the rest of them....
Well, we will have to agree to disagree then. We all have our favourite tools to do a particular job. All I will say further is that if you haven't actually tried MuseScore to do what you've just outlined, then please do give it a go. You may be pleasantly surprised. 

Edited to add:
Just as a postscript I would add that in Sheffield schools (I don't know about elsewhere), MuseScore is now advocated as the piece of software for children to learn and use music. Some of these youngsters may well go on to be future successful classical and traditional musicians. The music teachers I know love it.

More information and free downloads here.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 09:44:26 AM by Steve_freereeder »
Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal