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Author Topic: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings  (Read 2574 times)

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Tone Dumb Greg

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Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« on: October 28, 2017, 11:57:04 PM »

Not sure if this is a valid topic and, if it is, not sure where it should go. I'll stick it here for Theo to adjudicate.

My wife gave me a Lenova tablet for my birthday (note: minature computer thingy, not medication)
I used it over the summer for videoing dance outs and things with surprisingly useful  results.

I thought, maybe, I could use it for posting TOTM videos. Trouble is, the sound is pretty (very) basic. It would be nice to improve the sound quality of field recordings, as well.

Is there a way of patching in something a bit better. I've got a reasonable selection of home audio production type stuff I can use. Even patching in an H2N would be far better, but I don't know if this is possible. At the moment, the best idea I have is to record a sound track on another device and post edit it into the video but this seems a clunky way to do it.

I suppose there are software and hardware interface issues to be addressed.

Any suggestions?
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Greg Smith
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2017, 12:26:21 AM »

Do you know what exact tablet you have?

My mum has an H2n that I borrow from time to time, and you can connect it to a regular Windows running PC as a USB microphone, or, you can presumably use a 3.5mm audio cable from the line out to other sources. If you have a tablet running android, it will probably have a headphone jack on it that's actually a 4 pole jack to supports a headset (headphone + mic combination). If it does, it should be possible to record a video using that mic input, although it would only be mono and I'm not sure how that would work exactly with the H2n. (edit you might need to get a special splitter cable but you'd wanna check your device has this kind of port first)

When I've made TOTM & other videos in the past though, I've recorded the audio on the H2n just on its own, in addition to using my phone separately, and just replaced the video's audio after the fact. It should be possible though to have it put together to begin with, and that would be much easier.

further edit - just to add, I tested this last night with my phone (a Sony Xperia Z5 Compact mind, so a no expense spared kinda device). I was able to use a standard 3.5mm to 3.5mm cable to connect the H2n's Line Out up to the mic input of one of these special sorts of splitter - note the 3 rings on the connector - and plug the splitter into my phone's headset combo jack. The audio from the h2n was used instead of the Phone's input mic when recording a normal video with it (I didn't actually record with the h2n at all, just had it turned on) meaning I wouldn't need to do any post processing at all. I did find however that I was getting rogue inputs sent to my phone, eg volume up/down, as if from an inline headset remote control unit. Unsure if that was just a bad connection or a strange artefact from the line out. I think if I record at home in the future I will use this solution to save on post processing. For recording morris, I've actually found having the phone's audio helpful as well, as it picked up the bells and sticking, where as the h2n was positioned near, and caught a good impression, of the band.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 06:48:26 AM by Gena Crisman »
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Clive Williams

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Re: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2017, 04:34:06 AM »

Yes, I use an H2 as well. Sometimes as a microphone plugged into a desktop or Surface laptop as a simple USB microphone; sometimes standalone, and downloading the file directly. Then edited/mixed in Mixcraft 7. Import the sound file and sync it up with a video track recorded at the same time through a standard webcam in Windows Movie Maker, mute the webcam audio, and just use the imported audio. The whole process is somewhat easier than I make it sound :-)

Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2017, 08:58:51 AM »

In the past I  recorded independent sound and video on a (now defunct) mid range camera (dating from 2006) and the H2N. Then I loaded both files into the PC and mixed and synched them using Videopad.

Then I found that I could use the H2N as an auxiliary microphone with a PC in exactly the way Clive describes with quite decent results. The trouble is 1: the available surfaces in my recording studio (living room) are very low so the camera angle is a bit weird and 2: that doesn't give me an easily portable and quick to set up field recording system.

Originally I wondered if the H2N could connect to the tablet via the USB, but that sort of relationship doesn't seem possible without something to host both devices, which defeats the object.

When i tried to find an auxiliary audio input on the tablet there didn't seem to be one, but I think what Gina said has clarified the situation. Patching through the headphone/microphone jack socket sounds like the way forward. Took a minute for me to get my head around how it worked. I didn't realise the tablet device might have this phone style combination socket.
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Greg Smith
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2017, 09:46:52 AM »

Originally I wondered if the H2N could connect to the tablet via the USB, but that sort of relationship doesn't seem possible without something to host both devices, which defeats the object.

So, that might actually also be vaguely possible without additional hardware; many modern android devices have very versatile IO controllers, and among other things, some are able to make use of USB On-The-Go (or OTG) to function as a host, although once again, only with a special cable, to provide a standard USB port into which you can connect a variety of devices. Apparently Audio support was added natively to Android more recently than some other use cases, and that company I've linked to have been (I assume) selling a software solution for a while longer - so, support is potentially less ubiquitous than, say, accessing a USB memory stick, so, depending on how modern your tablet is and what decisions Lenovo may have made, YMMV. You may have already looked into this, I'm not sure.

I don't have one of those OTG cables on hand though but in principal it could work if your device has the right chips in it; Audio source does appear in my list of phone's USB connectivity options, although I'm not sure how it would integrate with the video recording app. Audio over USB would probably be the 'better' choice, but, for our use case here it's probably not even remotely a big deal - the most likely thing you'd get is stereo audio, but I think it may also be more likely to have weird, unsolvable problems.

I should note, I generally use OpenCamera as my android video recording app (it's free and open source) because it allows me to Lock the focus and exposure settings fairly easily, which can be super helpful for getting a nice clean looking video from a static position, especially out in British weather. It does have a sort of weird sparten UI but that actually appeals to my sensibilities. Those Headset adapter cables can be pretty handy too - works with my phone, tablet and laptop, and has comes in handy for making long, annoying phone calls where I can just put my phone on the table and use a computer headset instead of holding the phone up to my ear the whole time.

Anyway, hope you find a solution that works for you!
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Re: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2017, 09:58:53 AM »

At the moment, the best idea I have is to record a sound track on another device and post edit it into the video but this seems a clunky way to do it.

That's the way I've always done it. It is much more work than uploading the original camera sound, but if you want to edit the sound, I think it's the only way. My video editor software has an "align audio" function, so I can sync the imported audio with the camera audio, which suggests that's an expected and common usage, even if you call it 'clunky'.

There is a lot to be gained, though, by simply using a separate external mic that can be placed optimally, especially if you can plug it directly into whatever you're using for a camera so it replaces the camera's internal mic. Your editing options may be more limited, but you'll get much better sound in the first place.

(Just seen Gena's suggestion of USB OTG. That's an extremely geeky and adventurous proposition which I considered momentarily while composing this reply, but will be very happy to let someone else experiment with if they want to...)
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2017, 10:20:37 AM »

Originally I wondered if the H2N could connect to the tablet via the USB, but that sort of relationship doesn't seem possible without something to host both devices, which defeats the object.

..You may have already looked into this, I'm not sure...


I havent looked into any of this before, I am embarking on a journey of discovery. You giving me great information Gena, thanks.

I am probably five to ten years behind in the technology stakes.
I started home recording when my wife decided she wanted to make a CD while she could still sing and I got totally enthralled in the technology and gadgetry of it all. I put together quite a reasonably home studio. That was probably ten years ago, however. I haven't really moved on since.

I am comfortable with desktops and laptops, as long as they have USB or firewire ports, but I have never had a device such as an ipad, smart phone, kindle or tablet (before). I  thought about buying an ipad a few years ago, but when I asked the salesman about potential use as a DAW he looked shifty and changed the subject to how good it was at social media and gaming. I didn't realise what the Tablet thing I've got could do. I thought it was not going to be good for anything except reading kindle books.

Any information on the best way forward, especially in a media capture and processing way,  is very gratefully received.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 10:22:17 AM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Greg Smith
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2017, 11:00:02 AM »


...if you want to edit the sound, I think it's the only way...


You can definitely edit video audio in Cubase, which I used to use. You just import the video and edit audio against thumbnails, as a guide. I think you can do this in Reaper, which I use now, but I've never tried it. Don't know about other DAWs but I expect the good ones do the same.

Quote
My video editor software has an "align audio" function, so I can sync the imported audio with the camera audio, which suggests that's an expected and common usage, even if you call it 'clunky'.
 
Clunky is, of course, a relative term. The biggest problem I have with the "record separate tracks then edit together" approach is probably identifying the correct audio track from multiple takes.This can be quite tricky on a bad day, with lots of false starts and such.

Quote
Just seen Gena's suggestion of USB OTG...will be very happy to let someone else experiment with if they want to...


I think Gena has already proved this on her phone. I'm going to see if it works on the tablet. Can't think of a reason why it won't (famous last words?). Worth a punt for a fiver or so. I do tend to struggle using settings on the Lenovo. I'm used to the PC ways of doing things. Currently searching for an online manual for the device to check the 3.5mm jack configuration (it only came with a quick start sheet which I can't find).

[edited to say, I just realised you were referring to the USB on the go, not the audio splitter. Should have read what you said more carefully. I am going to investigate the USB OTG and see what what it would actually involve.]
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 11:14:23 AM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2017, 11:18:16 AM »

Though I haven't used it for a while, I used to use Windows Movie Maker and try and align my Olympus ( sound ) recorder to it.
sometimes I got it fairly right first time other times.....argh! Hair tearing and rude words ensued  ::)

A trick shown on a YouTube video on how to align was simple:
Press record on both video and sound recorders. Sit back and clap!
Start to play your tune.

At the editing phase, in Windows Movie Maker, align both visual and sound clap, then edit in WMM and chop off the extra bits as the sound and video is aligned.
....but after learning this my infrequent  recording seems to be just using Soundcloud and recording the sound. Just an easier way.
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2017, 11:28:58 AM »

Originally I wondered if the H2N could connect to the tablet via the USB, but that sort of relationship doesn't seem possible without something to host both devices, which defeats the object.

...many modern android devices have very versatile IO controllers, and among other things, some are able to make use of USB On-The-Go (or OTG) to function as a host, although once again, only with a special cable, to provide a standard USB port...I don't have one of those OTG cables on hand though


Just checked and a USB OTG cable costs about the same as the jack plug splitter cable. The USB OTG seems to have more potential for other applications, but I don't know how capable the tablet is. It is this year's model but it came with zero technical information. Told you how to charge it and turn it on. Not much else. Have to find an on-line manual. Or just suck it and see.
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Greg Smith
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ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2017, 11:44:24 AM »

Though I haven't used it for a while, I used to use Windows Movie
Q

I hated Movie Maker. Videopad is much more powerful and much easier to use. I've never got round to paying for it. Never felt that the occasional use I put it to was worth it. You can download a fully functional demo professional version from their site. You used to able to upgrade this to a permanent installation without buying a licence, but someone posted how to do this on Youtube and they got wise... You can still use it free "forever" (i.e., until they get wise again) but this means uninstalling and reinstalling after a month. This does have the advantage that you're always running the latest version.

Quote

... A trick shown on a YouTube video on how to align was simple:
Press record on both video and sound recorders. Sit back and clap!
Start to play your tune...


Good idea. I still have a problem relating loads of audio files only identified by numbers to their respective video takes, though
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Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2017, 12:01:21 PM »

I used to find the whole thing a huge effort, then realised my playing was cr*p and so crestfallen at it all. Some of that was totally loosing the plot when the 'record' light was flashing!
I find using Soundcloud less stressful, but I really appreciate watching some people play. I find it interesting to see how they move around the box, and useful to learn from too.
I need to come full circle and start recording again....
One day!
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2017, 02:13:32 PM »

I agree with everything you've just said Quinton. Describes my experience to a T  :-[
Some of it is probably because I'm getting more self critical and aware of my weaknesses, though. In the long run that ought to be a good thing.
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Greg Smith
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2017, 03:35:48 PM »

Thank you Greg for the reassurance that it's not just me  :Ph
yes, equally I agree with you, self criticism is a good thing....not sure about my wife's though :|bl
Though it's meant in the best way.
I think my cat's criticism is the best.
He either gently paws me to stop cos he needs a lap to sit on, or else just curls up beside me and goes to sleep.
....with a paw curled over his head   :'(
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

penn

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Re: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2017, 04:02:08 PM »

Another thing that may be worth considering if you get the H2N connected to the tablet via USB is the quality of the recording in the tablet. You know that the H2N records pretty good quality audio, but what quality is the audio in the tablet app? If it's capable of higher bit rate Mp3 or WAV then, great, but if it's stuck at 96kbps MP3 it won't be much of an improvement.
I think (if I had these things) I'd be inclined to record video and sound separately and stitch them together later. It avoids another cable to trip over when you're out, and it would mean you could plant the audio right up close to the musicians, while filming the dancers from a totally different position.

Getting audio devices to work on computers depends on drivers. Some sound devices use generic drivers that are part of the operating system. For instance, the company I work for makes UAC2 compliant USB sound boxes. They can plug in directly to a Mac or an iPad (via the camera connection USB woggle) but need a driver to be installed on a PC. Some variants of Linux support UAC2, others don't (but it may be possible to install a UAC2 driver for those that don't).
I have recorded via one of our sound boxes into an iPad, either using Garageband, or iMovie, but.. to be honest my stills camera does better videos than the iPad, and the “post production” to stitch together sound and picture and adding titles, snipping off the top and tail etc. etc. isn't a lot of bother.

..but I don't know about the H2N drivers, and couldn't find anything on t'internet.

The clap / clapperboard is what has been used for synchronisation in TV and film for years, but with modern computer editors it's not quite so necessary because it's not hard to see the waveform of the first sound. I have been using Adobe Premier Elements, but the audio was hard to see. I've recently switched to Magix Movie Studio, which cost me about £30 and it's a much better editor, you can make the audio as big as you like and the sound line-up is a piece of cake.

Steve
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2017, 05:54:16 PM »

On the bright side,  my tablet is USB OTG compatible. I checked on the manufacturer's site.

But,Penn raises some issues which seem valid. Especially the possibilty of driver issues. My H2N is quite an old device I don't know if suitable android drivers exist.

So far as post record patching together and synching goes, VideoPad is a "professional" quality editor and is as good as any software around for doing this. I find matching  the correct clips out of loads to the videos more of a problem

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Greg Smith
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playandteach

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Re: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2017, 06:28:50 PM »


Quote
... A trick shown on a YouTube video on how to align was simple:
Press record on both video and sound recorders. Sit back and clap!
Start to play your tune...


Good idea. I still have a problem relating loads of audio files only identified by numbers to their respective video takes, though
Then you could always clap the right number of times for the take.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2017, 06:48:41 PM »

yes indeed, but it could end up sounding like a round of applause  ::)
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

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Re: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2017, 07:02:28 PM »

Penn is right about the quality concerns - the tablet will probably not do as good a job, but, I don't actually believe it will be a big concern:

The H2n probably has a better ADC (analogue to digital converter) and using it to convert the audio to a digital format when using it as a USB device is probably the better choice of the two (if it works with your devices). I believe the H2n presents itself as a very straight forward & standard USB microphone, so it stands as much a chance of working as anything else, I think. However, both setups do indeed rely on the android device's audio encoding solution & buffers etc. Honestly, for a modern branded device, I can't imagine this will be anything less than modestly high bitrate AAC, and will almost definitely be a higher bitrate than what youtube will allocate you. And obviously if you're just making a recording for soundcloud you'd just use the h2n on its own anyway, so youtube is going to be your target for this kind of content.

My solution for synchronisation is actually fairly straight forward: I make one sync point and then just don't stop recording between takes unless I'm taking a longer break. I find it makes me a better performer and more accepting of small mistakes, plus gets me playing the whole piece. Importantly though it also helps me be less frustrated. Fewer files to delete when it doesn't pan out, too!

For all my video editing needs I use Avisynth, a GUIless scripting language for video editing, and Audacity for adjusting audio files that I dub in and out of said videos, eg making sure they're normalised and have had ambient noise reduction applied.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Improved audio tracks for video field and home recordings
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2017, 07:07:17 PM »


Quote
... A trick shown on a YouTube video on how to align was simple:
Press record on both video and sound recorders. Sit back and clap!
Start to play your tune...


Good idea. I still have a problem relating loads of audio files only identified by numbers to their respective video takes, though
Then you could always clap the right number of times for the take.

There might easily be 30 or more video clips with associated audio files on an out.
Doing a TOTM recording - who knows.

As far as improvements to audio quality go, the Zoom is much more capable microphone than the tablet. Even at basic sample rates there will be an improvement.

I'm off searching for android drivers now.
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Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce
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