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Author Topic: Calling all cross row players - advice sought  (Read 12022 times)

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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2017, 09:06:43 PM »

I was thinking along the same lines as Anahata before he posted.
I used to be very proficient on English Concertina and had a frustrating time when picking up melodeon. I remember Theo telling me that it takes time, and he was right!
There was no point in me trying to learn a Tune for the Month cos it took more than that!
Mercifully things do get better, it came together for me, well I'm better than I was anyway!
I sense you're feeling is similar to my experiences.
It takes time....... Keep at it!
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playandteach

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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2017, 09:42:58 PM »

My only heart sinking moment was Anahata confirming that technique doesn't qualify as musicianship.

I certainly didn't intend to have that effect, nor was that quite what I meant.
You'd have to work hard to offend me - not that I'm not easily offended, I can be - but I can also sense someone who has an insensitive side or a deliberate desire to put people down. You are clearly not like that. The heart sinking was in recognition of myself - not your label. I do however take hope from the fact that you have experienced similar things. Thanks.
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george garside

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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2017, 12:01:07 AM »

The thought occurs to me that those who see themselves as 'cross row players' or as 'on the row players are short changing themselves as there are advantages and disadvantages to both styles of operating the machine.

Some types of music and/or particular tunes work better with one style than t'other and vice versa. As primarily a dance musician I favour mostly , but not exclusively, on the row playing for that type of music  but don't hesitate to cross row when it makes a tune sound better or makes life a bit easier.

I am not an on the row player or a cross row player, I am simply a box player!
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2017, 08:01:41 AM »

Thanks George, my thoughts exactly!
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Thrupenny Bit

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Julian S

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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2017, 08:20:06 AM »

The thought occurs to me that those who see themselves as 'cross row players' or as 'on the row players are short changing themselves as there are advantages and disadvantages to both styles of operating the machine.

Some types of music and/or particular tunes work better with one style than t'other and vice versa. As primarily a dance musician I favour mostly , but not exclusively, on the row playing for that type of music  but don't hesitate to cross row when it makes a tune sound better or makes life a bit easier.

I am not an on the row player or a cross row player, I am simply a box player!

Exactly my views as well. Playing a 2.4 D/G box as I do much of the time, with accidentals and unusual bass arrangement (including Em push and G pull ) means I have even more options on cross rowing - which I use a lot particularly for French music. But 'lumpy' tunes and stompy dances need the lift and bounce which I have always found easier to achieve when playing on the row.
I also very much agree with Anahata, about session playing. When I started playing, I recorded many hours of tunes from sessions and lps on cassette and devoted a huge amount of time in learning them - with no option to slow the tune down. Pattern recognition and building up tunes from the bits I could play - must have driven friends mad ! But now it's so much easier to slow down recordings - and also change keys - and it's a great way to learn and practice, both in terms of picking up melody and trying different options on chord accompaniment and variations. You can also have fun playing along with great musicians and bands in the privacy of your own front room !

J
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playandteach

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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2017, 08:37:29 AM »

I don't want to pigeon hole anyone, I just didn't want to open the usual debate of which is the one true way. If the point is: play on the row in sessions, but cross row in order to achieve the chords you want in different circumstances, then I accept it. But I am after specific guidance (much of which I've received) here, not roasting a familiar chestnut. There seems to be a good understanding of what I'm asking, so no problem.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2017, 09:15:13 AM »

Just had a thought about my strategy:
If at a session where I really don't know anyone ( festivals etc ) I have found it useful to eyeball the player starting a new tune.
His left hand basses will help to give a basic idea of whether it's in G or D, roughly.
I have also found simply playing on that row will give me a hint as to what's going on. Once phrases come that I recognise and latch onto I tend to play across, or whatever way those notes are easiest for me or perhaps the way I'm used to playing that phrase.
Yes and definitely keep a pencil and scrap of paper handy to scribble down a name for the tune so that Google will be my friend when back home.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Andy Next Tune

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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2017, 10:21:41 AM »

Having thought about my approach to unfamiliar tunes in sessions, my process is broadly.......
1. Listen to the whole tune (do any phrases sound familiar?)
2. Identify the key (watching another box player is always useful)
3. Start putting together the jigsaw of the melody using the collection of phrase pieces my fingers already know (with or without left hand)
4. Try to fill in some gaps, but the session standard of ''three times through' fights against this.
5. If I like the tune, I'll try to remember to write down its name so that I can find the ABC/dots and work at it properly at home.

The objective of my process is to get the tune into my head and decide whether I want to investigate it further, not to 'learn' it at the session.
For me, most but not all of those phrase pieces are on-the-row, but there are some cross-row chunks as well. A cross-row player would have a different collection of pieces, as would a B/C player. The two most important steps are 1 and 5 !

Whether you then decide to learn to play it in a on-the-row or cross-row style is a different and personal decision.

I find 'trad' tunes are generally much more predictable and therefore easier to pick up in a session than more modern compositions.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2017, 10:48:06 AM »

Yes, Andy has mentioned something important to me too - I have to like the tune!
Sometimes a tune being played means it's a loo break or get another pint.....
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Chris Brimley

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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2017, 11:04:51 AM »

Squeezy put it brilliantly!

Adding something about bigger quint boxes - they come in so many different layouts that it's obviously going to be difficult to make many hard and fast rules for useful fingering patterns, (and actually, players have different-shaped hands!) and so I reckon it's probably best for players of these instruments to devise their own for their own layout.  Where larger boxes have reversals you might think it makes it even more difficult to remember which fingering option to take.  I've found that actually, this is not quite as difficult as you might think, because you can more easily develop default rules for yourself.  For example, for my DGAcc boxes I have E/D buttons, and I have learned by default to use them automatically as a first choice where playing D in an Em chord passage, or E in a G chord passage, even when it may not be strictly necessary because those notes are occurring on off-beats when the LH bass or chord is not sounding.  I feel that the way forward is to develop these rules for myself, to play more difficult passages without having to work them out each time.


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playandteach

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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2017, 02:01:37 PM »

Thanks, I will re-read these later, as there does seem to be some good tips contained in this thread.
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Stockaryd

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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2017, 03:58:03 PM »

What is  =  "A cross row player"?   
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playandteach

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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2017, 04:14:28 PM »

Well,
If you consider the 2 row melodeon as two separate keys and tend to play up and down one row using bellows changes to give the adjacent notes then that is the sort of playing that is fundamentally one-row technique - or 'on the row' playing. G tunes on the G row, D tunes on the D row.
If you (as I do) tend to use the bellows in longer phrases and 'borrow'notes from the other row in order to stick with a chosen left hand chord, for example, then that's what I'm referring to as 'cross-row' playing.
Of course there's no reason not to do both or mix them up a bit. It was just a way of trying to ask for a specific set of response - to avoid people saying just play on the row wherever possible (because that's not my chosen style - I could explain why).
Hope that makes it clear.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2017, 04:24:36 PM »

Yes.  Trying to avoid drift, I'm afraid the answer is simple - a 'cross row' player has simply come to mean someone who uses all the buttons available in what seems to them to be the best way.  It is not a specific technique, as such.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 04:29:05 PM by Chris Brimley »
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Gary P Chapin

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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2017, 04:46:52 PM »

I support your quest, playandteach, and there is plenty of good advice here. The only thing I will add is that I benefited from a shift in mindset -- moving away from deficit thinking about your playing time. In your OP you talk about having to "unlearn" it ... and I think that's a rabbit hole to avoid going down. If you know a tune in two different ways, that is completely cool. Learning each way will make you a better player, and considering the costs/benefits of each way will ALSO make you a better player. So, I think learning the tune in the most comfortable way you can is great. Get it under your fingers, and then you can grow from there.

Hope that doesn't sound condescending. I don't mean it to.

Gary
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Anahata

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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2017, 04:58:03 PM »

Good advice, Gary. I was thinking something similar but somehow didn't get round to putting it into words in such a clear way.
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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #56 on: November 13, 2017, 05:03:51 PM »

I think I'm more with P&T on that one - confusion over alternative fingerings has been a significant problem for me, which has in the past often caused me to go wrong while performing, and I believe, for myself at least, that the answer lies in establishing rules (often subconsciously) that enable one to predict how a passage should be fingered.  It's just too complicated to allow oneself freedom to play any of the alternatives, because you find yourself in uncharted areas of bellows extension, chordal accompaniment, fingers position and so on.  IMO, the way forward if seeking to become a consistent performer, is to follow one path that is best for oneself, not to allow the possibility of alternatives.  That is the way muscle-memory works.
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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #57 on: November 13, 2017, 05:10:06 PM »

Performing isn't quite the same thing as session playing, though.
For a performance, working out the ideal fingering and sticking to it may be a good idea, but until then, knowing there is more than one way to play something and being able to play it either way is a good starting point for making the choice that is most musical, as opposed to the only choice your fingers are able to play.
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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #58 on: November 13, 2017, 05:17:58 PM »

I'm not sure I would want to go down the road of learning a tune differently for sessions and performance!  In fact, this sort of conflict was the very thing that made me realise I needed to rehearse in a more focussed way.  In any field of the arts, does it not become important for performers to become disciplined in consistency?
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Re: Calling all cross row players - advice sought
« Reply #59 on: November 13, 2017, 05:44:47 PM »

I'm not sure I would want to go down the road of learning a tune differently for sessions and performance!  In fact, this sort of conflict was the very thing that made me realise I needed to rehearse in a more focussed way.  In any field of the arts, does it not become important for performers to become disciplined in consistency?

That's the opposite of the way I feel about a tune. I feel I am getting somewhere when I can play a tune loads of ways and then select a different option as the mood  and situation takes me. I read that the Irish American fiddler, Michael Coleman, learned a raft of variants of the tunes he played, so that he could change the he played a tune each time through, and specialised in making them sound as if he was inventing them on the fly. Not quite the same thing though, because he played the same changes in a tune every time he performed it.
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