Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: Bad habits...and other things  (Read 3796 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Tone Dumb Greg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2164
  • DG Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, CF Hohner, 1040C
    • Dartmoor Border Morris
Re: Bad habits...
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2017, 06:52:16 AM »


...anything you had wished you had done differently when starting out?

Barlow

I don't think it's worth getting too hung up on the little finger fing. FWIW I mostly use three, bringing the little finger in when needed. When it feels right.

However, what I do regret not having done is looking more closely at the players I liked best-those I would like to play like (eventually) and see how they did things. For me, that would be Squeezy and Mr Cutting.  Two very different styles, you say? True but I think their techniques share a lot of good practice. Be aware, though, that doing something in the way someone else does it does not always make you sound as good as they do (:)
Logged
Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
It is empty, but lacks nothing.
The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
Lao Tzu

squeezy

  • Quick starter (now lagging behind)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1216
  • Hohner Cornelia (mixte D/G/o&s)
    • www.johnspiers.co.uk
Re: Bad habits...
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2017, 09:42:30 AM »

Thanks!

My advice would be be to make sure during practice that you don't allow yourself to repeat the same mistake most times you do it.  An example of this is stopping and congratulating yourself at the end of an A part before playing the B part, or stopping at a tricky bit, stumbling over it and continuing, or only playing right hand because you can do that and it's easier.  Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent ... so make sure you don't make the mistakes permanent ... they're harder to erase from your brain!
Logged
Squeezy

Sometimes wrong, sometimes right ... but always certain!

Winston Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2069
  • AKA Edward Jennings
    • "Our Luxor B&B" Luxor life, slice by slice.
Re: Bad habits...
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2017, 10:36:17 AM »

"Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent ..."

I've never heard that before, but I cannot completely agree. The mistakes I've been practising for the last two years, seem to have become permanent, yes; but they're also perfect, too!
Logged
Although I can carry on messing with melodeons, the ongoing attention of the Ministry of Truth and the Thought Police will (no doubt) eventually teach me to really love Big Brother!

Bob Ellis

  • Hero?....Where's my medal, then?
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2635
  • Ain't I cute?
Re: Bad habits...
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2017, 12:00:37 PM »

Squeezy has made a passing reference to using the left hand, but nobody else seems to have mentioned it, so I will. While it is true that some Irish musicians make little or no use of the bass end of the instrument, many others do and it is essential for most other types of music (Tex/Mex being an exception). If you are intending to use the bass end at any stage in your melodeon-playing career, don't neglect it during the early stages of learning: the longer you leave it, the harder it will be to develop the necessary coordination between the left and right hands. Several students have come to me over the years because they have had little difficulty in learning to play the right hand, but have neglected the left-hand and are now finding it difficult to start using the bass end. My advice, for what it is worth, is to begin to incorporate the left hand from the start.
Logged
Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, Acadian one-row in D; Junior Martin one-row in C.

richard.fleming

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 391
Re: Bad habits...
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2017, 01:14:10 PM »

I once asked up-and-coming box player Emma Corbett, who is a student of Bobby Gardiner's, her opinion on playing with three vs. four fingers.  She told me that Bobby's advice was that "not using the pinky and overusing it are equally bad".  She claims that it is mostly three fingers, but that the little finger gets used in almost every tune, and that not using it results in a little less flow to the music.  I switched from always using four fingers to mostly three fingers and it made a big difference in my playing.  However, I still use the pinky as needed, and feel no shame in doing so ;)
Bobby Gardiner gets my vote there - most (usually sterile) either/or arguments are solved by adding a couple of 'n's.
Logged
Old Paolo Sopranis in C#/D and D/D#

mselic

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 631
Re: Bad habits...
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2017, 02:03:40 PM »

I am thankful I was given contrary advice at an early stage, and gave it a try despite my misgivings. :|glug

Just to be clear, I'm quite glad that I switched from using four to (mostly) three fingers as well! This came about in part from a discussion that I started in this forum, and from helpful answers from people about their experiences such as yourself. In my case, I decided there were times when I would use my pinky because it made sense to me. 

I certainly wish that I had favoured using three from the start. Like you, I assumed that best practice would be to use all four fingers all the time, only later discovering for myself that in my case it wasn't true.  I will echo someone else's good advice when I suggest watching the fingers of better players to see what it is they do; I only started doing that relatively recently and it was helpful to me.
Logged
4 stops: Melodie D, Beltuna G, HA114 A
Hohner Erica D/C#

Barlow

  • Bad player, but apparently
  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 90
  • Castagnari Lilly B/C
Re: Bad habits...
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2017, 02:35:03 PM »

There is so much in all these replies. Thank you.
3/4 fingers. I have so much to say on that, but I realise I am still formulating my opinion as yet. Thanks for the words, they are a great help.

Basses:
Having messed with bass guitar years ago I was drawn to the left hand. On a B/C it can be interesting. In key of D, what bass do players use when playing Fsharp (press) on the RH? Other than leaving it out, most players I have watched have, I think pressed a G chord -  but it sounds ok . I realise there is probably an appropriate smiley face for that sound, but it does actually sound ok as the chord is only touched on. None of the press notes/chords (C, G, E) in theory anyway, reasonably fit with the press Fsharp

Which brings me onto: why on a standard B/C are there two sets of press buttons for C bass and C Chord. A waste surely? I realise they fit with their corresponding draw notes/chords, F and G, but I would like to have one set altered to play (press) Dbass/Dchord. Any comments?

« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 02:37:26 PM by Barlow »
Logged
. . .

JohnS

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 35
Re: Bad habits...
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2017, 03:08:15 PM »

The lack of a push D chord is the major shortcoming of the standard B/C bass layout.  There are various options for reconfiguring:

McComiskey
D/F E/A
C/G G/D

Nolan
C/F E/A
D/G G/D

Burke
C/F E/A
G/G D/D

Then for the minor keys you'll need thirds out, either with a stop if your box has one or else by having them taped off.
Logged

Bob Ellis

  • Hero?....Where's my medal, then?
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2635
  • Ain't I cute?
Re: Bad habits...
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2017, 08:27:12 PM »

I certainly wish that I had favoured using three from the start. Like you, I assumed that best practice would be to use all four fingers all the time, only later discovering for myself that in my case it wasn't true.  I will echo someone else's good advice when I suggest watching the fingers of better players to see what it is they do; I only started doing that relatively recently and it was helpful to me.

Watching other people's fingers or taking advice from them about whether to use three or four fingers only gets you so far. Some people are comfortable with using their little finger; others are not. It has more to do with personal physiology than with 'best practice'. If you find you can utilise and control your little finger comfortably, then I suggest using it because more notes will fall naturally under your fingers and it will reduce the number of times you have to move your hand position. However, if you find using your little finger difficult or it disrupts the fluidity of your playing, then don't use it unless you have to do so. Personally, I use it a lot, but rarely when a note is being ornamented. I prefer to move my hand position to play triplets, cuts and other ornaments because of the extra control I can achieve with the other three fingers.
Logged
Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, Acadian one-row in D; Junior Martin one-row in C.

MarioP

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 214
  • Enjoying the MADNESS
    • AnyITsolution.Services
Re: Bad habits...
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2017, 12:01:46 PM »

Yes to all of the above.

I just recently can do some intros to some of the songs I like ( because I like improvising more than learning songs I already have heard etc) both improvising and learning have complementing each other

I would emphasize that knowing the scales which sometimes can be replaced by knowing the song at least by humming to it helps to play internally and allows finger motion, digitation, execution as well as bellow movement and air usage to become more natural.

But as I aid before I’m not striving to become a public performer not even bad rehearser. So for now I’m OK with the progress I’ve made and for the songs I like I try to YouTube tutoríals in how other people play them watch them play in different keys then stick to what the song was originally written on. I like searching popular songs guitar tabs and chords to give me a clue what key they were written on them I pick the melodeon that’s closest key to Em’...

For me I wish I would have look up the scales ahead of time but I was too eager to learn a song or learn the movements push/pull and how to not run out of air during parts I like most of the song so I had many curiosities rather than just learn to play silent night ( which I still know only 25% of it) the rest i end up playing some happy bday stuff 😂

What I’ve seen many do around here and seems to work its to stick to what you like and you’ll be fine.
Logged
Hohner Corso A/D x2, G/C, Corona II A/D/G from the 60s.
Hohner Pre Corona II BsEsAs,Club IV C/F Pre-War, Liliput C/F, Mignon I (G) Piano from the 30s, Kromatica III from the 60s harmonica. Hohner Kids I. Pearl Forum series 80s, Zildjian, Sabían, Wuhan cymbals. Ludwig snare 70s.

Gromit

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 449
Re: Bad habits...
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2017, 12:48:40 PM »

Quote
I pick the melodeon that’s closest key to Em’...

Is that Em as in E minor or Em as in (them) - sorry ;)
Logged

MarioP

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 214
  • Enjoying the MADNESS
    • AnyITsolution.Services
Re: Bad habits...
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2017, 01:59:02 PM »

I meant to them 😂 ‘em not sure why Em kicked in ... I know that’s a bass terminology but I’ve not begun to play reading formally.
Logged
Hohner Corso A/D x2, G/C, Corona II A/D/G from the 60s.
Hohner Pre Corona II BsEsAs,Club IV C/F Pre-War, Liliput C/F, Mignon I (G) Piano from the 30s, Kromatica III from the 60s harmonica. Hohner Kids I. Pearl Forum series 80s, Zildjian, Sabían, Wuhan cymbals. Ludwig snare 70s.

Lyra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 549
Re: Bad habits...
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2017, 11:50:51 PM »

My bad habits
1. Thinking too much about what I'm playing as I'm playing it ("Oh no here comes the tricky part", "Oh damn, I needed a gulp of air there", "oh no wrong finger!") instead of relaxing into it
2. Not practicing nearly enough/sadface
Logged

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4806
Re: Bad habits...
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2017, 12:35:30 AM »

as far as the 'fingers' thing on semitone boxes  there are definitely no rules  and for what its worth I use 3 or 4 and occasionaly just 2 fingers depending not only on the tune  as a whole but on different bits of the same tune in some cases i.e  whatever is easiest in a particular situation.

george
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".    Available on ebay as a 'buy now' item. Put in melodeon tutor book for full info.  Melodeon DG & BC and piano accordion tuition

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2933
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: Bad habits...
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2017, 01:57:35 AM »

Nobody said there were rules. I wish people would stop implying that a friendly recommendation is given as a rule just because they don't agree with it.  :P 
Logged
« L'enfer, c'est le doigté des autres »

www.rogermillington.com

Barlow

  • Bad player, but apparently
  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 90
  • Castagnari Lilly B/C
Re: Bad habits...
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2017, 09:35:37 AM »

Stiamh, your input has been invaluable.
I made a decision at the start to use 4 fingers and have used exercises to strengthen and quicken my finger movement (even sat on a train bored, practicing finger patterns). That was great when I was using only the one row. Then when I started (in my case B/C) playing key of D and G I thought the 4 fingers would be great, but actually it's not so great. All that finger crossing over, awkward at first but quite nice once it starts to work, but best with the 3 more dexterous and equal fingers. Very occasionally my shorter little finger falls onto a note on the outside row, so I'll use it then. I'm still wondering should I continue my 4 finger campaign, or just bow to physiology. And your valued opinion.

More likely I will use something in between.

My post brings up another point. I started finding I could play all sort of tunes in C. And the basses worked nicely too. Super! Then I was told I would have to start using key of D and G and using the B row, if I was to play in sessions with others. My point here is, if I may: for B/C learners, don't start to feel too comfy playing in the home key. From day one get used to playing both rows.

JohnS:
This is great information. Thank you.

McComiskey
D/F E/A
C/G G/D

Nolan
C/F E/A
D/G G/D

Burke
C/F E/A
G/G D/D


I have been thinking about the McComiskey adjustment, but I see the benefits of the other two. Burke especially. Is there a thread on this? I will search.

And again, if I may, can I offer general advice to other learners, I have started reading this part of the forum from page 84 forwards (Not all of it just the ones which I'm drawn to, which is most of them). Then I bookmark the page to continue later. Lots and lots of ionformation, and you can see learners improving. Forum goes back 10 years (?) or so.

Right. See you for now. And thanks.
Page 79 awaits me.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 09:40:24 AM by Barlow »
Logged
. . .

Jozz

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 49
Re: Bad habits...
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2017, 09:52:22 AM »

Very interesting to follow...

I'm just reading up, have not played any melodeon yet. Although I can't really get around the little finger discussion. Videos of players that have some skill, put in some ornaments, and end up frequently using it. As a PA player I can see no reason not using it.

Regarding the basses, somebody told me players of Irish trad. mostly play right hand, because it is very hard to find a matching bass pattern, because of the music itself. Is this true? So it is used sparingly only on certain accents or afterbeats? And how would one go about practicing that? Trial and error?
Logged
Greetings from the Netherlands!

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2933
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: Bad habits...and other things
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2017, 10:50:12 AM »

As a PA player I can see no reason not using it.

Piano keys are long and you use the whole length of them. Draw an imaginary straight line of small buttons on your PA keys and try to play hitting only those spots.

Quote
Regarding the basses, somebody told me players of Irish trad. mostly play right hand, because it is very hard to find a matching bass pattern, because of the music itself. Is this true?

One point is that the regular bass patterns used in other types of music rather detract from the flow of the melody in Irish tunes. Here's an example of a very competent CBA player using constant basses. Most Irish players would say that that was OK for a ceili band maybe, but for regular playing it's rather stifling.

Another point is that because, as Barlow points out above, melody on a B/C box rarely stays on one row, the bass arrangement on an 8-bass B/C doesn't give you many options. (This is where our esteemed George will chime in to point out the benefits of a unisonoric stradella bass system, even a small one with only 12 buttons. In fact the Burke layout picture above goes some way towards such a system on an 8-bass.)

Quote
So it is used sparingly only on certain accents or afterbeats? And how would one go about practicing that? Trial and error?

Yes, yes, and yes, probably.

This clip shows the kind of thing a really really good B/C player will do with only 8 basses.

The "other" Irish system, C#/D, is much more conducive to playing a regular bass accompaniment, at least in any key with two or three sharps (D, Bm, Edorian, A). To deal with G satisfactorily you need a 12-bass machine.

Logged
« L'enfer, c'est le doigté des autres »

www.rogermillington.com
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.