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Author Topic: Recording king repair  (Read 24994 times)

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boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2017, 01:36:11 AM »

Thanks Paul, that's interesting. The PA is a monster in weight, it looks nice enough but might cost more than it's worth to fix? It's got a few reeds floating about. I haven't crack it open yet.

The same with the recording king I opened it up to look around and gave it a little cleaning of dust. I tried to sort out where the reeds would go (I may or may not have got them right). I was surprised that some were older Hohner H and some look a little newer and a couple of the bass reeds seemed to be brass?
Anyway a hodgepodge of reeds and leathers. The action seems pretty good, celluloid and bottoms need a good cleaning, bellows aren't to bad other than tape needed.

I got my work cut out for me!! This thing may not be free after all. (:)
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boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2017, 01:46:44 AM »

Picture of the bass reeds , maybe brass? The two on the right end
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triskel

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2017, 02:09:35 AM »

I got my work cut out for me!! This thing may not be free after all. (:)

Par for the course with an instrument of that age I'm afraid, but you can't complain about the price you paid for it...  ;)

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2017, 02:18:45 AM »

La Tosca was a model name used by Gretsch; some of their accordions were US made I think and some (like this one, I think) made in Italy. I'd say that whoever made the Galanti Brox boxes made your La Tosca as well.

And what's the common denominator, between all of them - Baldoni. Bartoli, Galanti, Majestic banjos (of which I've had several), Gretsch, and Augusto?

New York! (Well, it makes it seem possible anyway...  ;))

boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2017, 02:33:47 AM »

Yes it would be a good price for any box, I told the owner that I'd give it some care so I'm on the hook now.
It must of had a bar type air button at one time,  someone changed it to a button type it's not done that well.
I wonder about a metal rod that is right at the edge/ corner just below the bass buttons, why it's there maybe for a strap or something? Looks like it would hurt your wrist over time.
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boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2017, 03:01:21 PM »

So I'm thinking to do some work on this box, new valves, wax, tuning, fix broken straps, ETC.
My question would be since the reeds are a mix of new and old (more old) would it be wise to 1. find more old to fill in what's needed. 2. Replace old with new. 3. Just use what's there.  I guess the added benefit to 2 would be lighter box as the old reeds seem to add a lot of weight, but they probably would not sound as good.
Suggestion?

Most of the existing reeds are sounding and look ok, a couple are slow to speak and sound weak. This could be just be related to valves, bad wax and some adjustments needed.

I have a PA full of reeds if those could be modified and use to replace?  If needed.
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pgroff

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2017, 04:02:26 PM »

Hi boxcall,

Any of the above will work & it sounds like you'll enjoy the project.

On the one hand, it's easy to get "upside down" in strictly economic terms (more invested in money and labor than the result is worth in today's market) with a project like this. Even starting with a "free" box. If you're worried about that outcome, may be best to avoid 80-year-old boxes altogether or to be very selective about your choice of projects.

But if that doesn't bother you, forge ahead and you'll learn a lot. I do have old Hohner reeds that will probably match the original ones in that box - let me know if that will help later on.

PG
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 04:15:14 PM by pgroff »
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Winston Smith

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2017, 04:09:18 PM »

"I have a PA full of reeds if those could be modified and use to replace?"

It depends on the size of the reedplates. I've found that PA reeds are often on longer plates which would require too much in the way of modifying original blocks to make them fit, and also that the PA blocks often have the air holes spaced differently to the holes in the fondo of the melodeon, so they aren't able to be used, either.

As for tuning the PA reeds to suit, I was advised to choose a pair which matched the higher of the two notes I wanted, and then tune one downwards by adding a touch of solder to the end of the reed and filing it up accordingly.) The PA reeds I used (looked like hand made) were from an ancient Mariani Fratelli PA.

The (otherwise scrap, Hohner) melodeon ended up being usable, but certainly nowhere near what a proper fettler could have achieved!

I have to admit that, even though it wasn't an fabulous success, I really enjoyed the experience, and it encouraged me to try out some of my more outrageous ideas on other boxes.
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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2017, 07:25:40 PM »


As for tuning the PA reeds to suit, I was advised to choose a pair which matched the higher of the two notes I wanted, and then tune one downwards by adding a touch of solder to the end of the reed and filing it up accordingly.) The PA reeds I used (looked like hand made) were from an ancient Mariani Fratelli PA.



I've done it several times by selecting a pair between the notes I needed, tuning one side up and the other side down.  Seems to work.

Graham
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boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2017, 10:52:48 PM »

So I'm going to repair this box , just for the heck of it! (:) :||:
I'm wondering,
First-- about tuners (the Peterson app) is there any difference between the IPhone or IPad version?
I guess the IPad might be better because I have a keyboard thing that stands up but Iphone might be good too.
Do folks use a microphone or built in mic.?
I guess it would be best to check reeds after putting on new valves individually to see how they are working, then put them in the block and recheck again. And at some point try to figure out where the tuning is for a starting point.
Second -- the grill needs new cloth and a good cleaning, it's a silver color I'm not sure if it's chrome.
What is good for cleaning the grill/ buffing with some kind of paste,maybe silver polish?
And if replacing cloth do folks try to match the color or accent?
The original appears to be close is color  (maybe more gold) but so dirty it hard to tell, it's very light almost see though.

I've taking out the reeds and will be cleaning them and putting on new valves, I built a little tuning table with old bellows from my hohner 1040 and when I get a proper tuner setup I will see where things are at.
I should have more questions at that point.

I'm not going to get crazy with pallet felt just yet it might not even need it, action feels pretty good
I will have to do bellow gaskets and fix some broken straps.
Thanks for any advise!
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Theo

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2017, 11:12:52 PM »

The same Peterson app works on iPhone and iPad, you only have to buy it once then it can be used on both.
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pgroff

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2017, 11:29:54 PM »

Hi boxcall,

I can supply you photos of a near-mint example of this model (except for one major flaw, which is probably the reason this box was hardly played in 81 years) which may answer your questions about the grille cloth, etc. I think the grille is likely nickel-plated brass, and Flitz or similar metal polishes are good to use if you give up on the original grille cloth. If its only mildly tarnished, then sometimes a silver-polishing cloth (flannel impregnated with a mild abrasive like rouge) will do the job.

PG
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boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2017, 11:56:54 PM »

The same Peterson app works on iPhone and iPad, you only have to buy it once then it can be used on both.
Ok thanks Theo, I thought I saw something ( on this internet thing) saying that they were different.
I saw pictures of you that Stevefreereeder posted on the melodeon building class and you had a 🎤 setup is this a must have. I don't own one. Well I take that back I do have a H2n recorder that could be used I would just have to figure out a cable for it.

Hi boxcall,

I can supply you photos of a near-mint example of this model (except for one major flaw, which is probably the reason this box was hardly played in 81 years) which may answer your questions about the grille cloth, etc. I think the grille is likely nickel-plated brass, and Flitz or similar metal polishes are good to use if you give up on the original grille cloth. If its only mildly tarnished, then sometimes a silver-polishing cloth (flannel impregnated with a mild abrasive like rouge) will do the job.

PG
Thanks Paul,
Photos would be helpful. The grill cloth is shot with holes and really dirty , falling apart.
I have some silver polish paste that my wife uses for her jewelry, I might try that. I think she's got a polishing cloth also that I could try first.

I wonder if your box has two air holes? Mine looks like it might have but has been altered. The modification wasn't done that well really I will probably need to improve it a bit.
Mine looks like it had two holes one on each side of the reed blocks and those have been covered with leather and a new one was made? Just a guess.
Cheers,
Michael
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malcolmbebb

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2017, 12:04:38 AM »

The built in mic is fine - other e.g. PC based tuners require an external mic, but phone and pad tuners can use the internal mic.

PS the software has a button for mic (input) boost, I find I need than On. It's easy to find.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 12:07:29 AM by malcolmbebb »
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Pearse Rossa

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2017, 12:18:28 AM »


I can supply you photos of a near-mint example of this model (except for one major flaw, which is probably the reason this box was hardly played in 81 years)

I would love to know more.
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pgroff

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2017, 12:20:20 AM »


Thanks Paul,
Photos would be helpful. The grill cloth is shot with holes and really dirty , falling apart.
I have some silver polish paste that my wife uses for her jewelry, I might try that. I think she's got a polishing cloth also that I could try first.

I wonder if your box has two air holes? Mine looks like it might have but has been altered. The modification wasn't done that well really I will probably need to improve it a bit.
Mine looks like it had two holes one on each side of the reed blocks and those have been covered with leather and a new one was made? Just a guess.
Cheers,
Michael

Yep, why not try the polishing cloth first - used with care that shouldn't transfer any staining to the underlying grille cloth. If you're very very patient you can use tiny drops of liquid polish very carefully on cotton swabs to polish individually each strand of the metal fretwork, without getting any on the grille cloth -- but that effort would be overkill if you are going to pull off and replace the grille cloth anyway. In that case, pull it all off and use a rag with Flitz or Simichrome etc.

I'm in the minority probably, but for my own boxes, I tend to be happy with no grille cloth at all for boxes with this type of soldered, 3-dimensional, metal grille. Probably because I've played Jeffries concertinas for years, I don't see an urgent need for grillecloth under open metal fretwork; furthermore I like to have minimal resistance to airflow and the maximally "open" tone possible.  If the original grillecloth is really nice (as it is on my RK) I'd be unlikely to remove it, but when the original cloth is bad and needs to be pulled I rarely bother replacing it. I've never had too much trouble with dust etc and if a cat hair gets sucked in & seizes up a reedtongue, that's an easy fix for me. Your taste might vary.

The great tuner Aldo Mencacini was known to pull off the thick metallized cloth originally installed under the celluloid grille of an Irish-American D box, telling the owner "There, now it can breathe!"

Yes, 2 air pallet holes for the original "full-length bar" air valve.

PG

« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 12:23:26 AM by pgroff »
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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2017, 12:31:14 AM »


I can supply you photos of a near-mint example of this model (except for one major flaw, which is probably the reason this box was hardly played in 81 years)

I would love to know more.


Hi Pearse Rossa!

All will become clear when I get around to a photo shoot (not tonight unfortunately), but no need for suspense. My example of the Recording King has a bad outward "bellying" sort of warp on the front of the bass-side woodwork, near the bellows frames, around the stenciled "RECORDING KING" label.  It's the sort of warp of the plywood that you sometimes seen on the *back* of an accordion from contact with a player's body heat & perspiration. But on the front of the accordion! Probaby an original-build flaw. Anyway when it arrived here, it leaked like a sieve at the gasket there - and may have done so since it was new. The usual woodworking repairs would probably compromise the nice appearance of the stencil . . . . I could permanently fill the entire concavity on the inside in some way, but at present the leak is solved with a little extra gasket material.

PG
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 12:35:21 AM by pgroff »
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boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2017, 12:48:16 AM »

The built in mic is fine - other e.g. PC based tuners require an external mic, but phone and pad tuners can use the internal mic.

PS the software has a button for mic (input) boost, I find I need than On. It's easy to find.
Great,  thanks Malcolm


Thanks Paul,
Photos would be helpful. The grill cloth is shot with holes and really dirty , falling apart.
I have some silver polish paste that my wife uses for her jewelry, I might try that. I think she's got a polishing cloth also that I could try first.

I wonder if your box has two air holes? Mine looks like it might have but has been altered. The modification wasn't done that well really I will probably need to improve it a bit.
Mine looks like it had two holes one on each side of the reed blocks and those have been covered with leather and a new one was made? Just a guess.
Cheers,
Michael

Yep, why not try the polishing cloth first - used with care that shouldn't transfer any staining to the underlying grille cloth. If you're very very patient you can use tiny drops of liquid polish very carefully on cotton swabs to polish individually each strand of the metal fretwork, without getting any on the grille cloth -- but that effort would be overkill if you are going to pull off and replace the grille cloth anyway. In that case, pull it all off and use a rag with Flitz or Simichrome etc.

I'm in the minority probably, but for my own boxes, I tend to be happy with no grille cloth at all for boxes with this type of soldered, 3-dimensional, metal grille. Probably because I've played Jeffries concertinas for years, I don't see an urgent need for grillecloth under open metal fretwork; furthermore I like to have minimal resistance to airflow and the maximally "open" tone possible.  If the original grillecloth is really nice (as it is on my RK) I'd be unlikely to remove it, but when the original cloth is bad and needs to be pulled I rarely bother replacing it. I've never had too much trouble with dust etc and if a cat hair gets sucked in & seizes up a reedtongue, that's an easy fix for me. Your taste might vary.

The great tuner Aldo Mencacini was known to pull off the thick metallized cloth originally installed under the celluloid grille of an Irish-American D box, telling the owner "There, now it can breathe!"

Yes, 2 air pallet holes for the original "full-length bar" air valve.

PG



Good Idea Paul , I may just leave the cloth off after I remove it and clean the grill. Let it breathe (:)

I thought so about the air holes, what's there now isn't bad but it could use a little tweaking.

BC
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boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2017, 02:15:42 AM »

So I'm in the process of ordering parts for the repairs.
I also got the Peterson tuner app and was checking some reeds on
my Beltuna one row. I was checking one bank at a time M plus row
was 6 to 7 cents sharp on the A , I expected that. The M was a
Couple cents 1.4 to 2 on the A note,the B same bank was right on.
Other notes and banks varied some good and others slightly sharp
or flat, most sharp by a few cents. I guess I should have it tuned.
I was using the equal temperament mode, would this be the one to
use? I tried some other modes but they showed up even sharper.
I won't be tuning the beltuna but will try out the app and my skills
On some piano reeds and then maybe the recording king.
So is this the temperament to use for most tuning?
Also is there a chart for tuning the MM+ reeds?
I know this can vary but wondering if there's a base.

One more thing how do folks clean the reeds of wax and leather glue,
Scrape it off or solvent? Other?
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2017, 10:21:44 AM »

I believe there are differences between the Peterson app for iPad and the Android version - most of the add-ons are not available on Android.  Mainstream European boxes are tuned equal temperament, though there will be local variations, just as Cajun tuning is different.

When I dropped in to visit Jolly Roger, he showed me a book of tuning schemes which basically covers the variations of tremolo across the range as typically used by individual manufacturers.  Some seem to like the tremolo beat frequency to increase with pitch, a few like it to remain constant throughout.  I'm sure others will come along with details and recommendations.  Any work you do in preparation will pay off at the tuning stage.  I would recommend mapping the frequency of each reed in the box before you start.  I have done this by cutting strips of paper and inserting them under the reed blocks to blank them off whilst I map another voice.  Once you get to the tuning table, map them again before doing anything else and you have a record of the offset to be expected when fitting them back into the box.  Apply the offset to the required finished pitch of each reed and the work should produce much better tuning when you put them back in.  All the records and calculations can be set up in a spreadsheet to produce your figures for the tuning table.

If you have the good fortune to come across a box that sounds just the way you want yours to end up, try to get the owner to let you map it out.  They say imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Rob
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