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Author Topic: Recording king repair  (Read 24992 times)

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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2017, 08:36:26 PM »

So In this video, of  Diatonix tuning reeds.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PJdU8l4foRA
He is using a jig to pretune and the reeds that do not have valves, so does the shape of the jig keep the other reed from sounding or distorting the sound?
From what I read the sound changes when you apply the reed valve, true?
Pre-tuning the reeds is normally done by the reed maker on new reeds. Usually, the reeds are tuned about 10 cents sharp. This is because: (i) adding the valves and (ii) mounting on the reed block and then finally (iii) in the instrument will result in a certain amount of flattening at each of these stages. The amount of flattening will vary from one situation to another and is not really possible to predict accurately what it will be. It's nearly always easier to flatten a reed than to sharpen it, especially if it is mounted in the instrument.

For reeds which have previously been used in an instrument, there is no real need to go through the pre-tuning stage again*. You are better off tuning on the reed blocks and then do the final fine-tuning in the instrument, preferably using a tuning bellows of similar dimensions as the instrument's own bellows**. These days I prefer to tune directly in the instrument from the start. I only tune 'on the block outside of the instrument' if access is very restricted, or if there is a large tuning change to be made (say 10 cents or more).

* The exception to this might be if you are significantly retuning a reed by around a semitone or so. It's easier and quicker to use a file as shown in Diatonix's video to change the pitch by that sort of amount. But you could do it with the reed mounted on the reed block.

** You can also use the instrument's own bellows to sound the reeds.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 08:40:04 PM by Steve_freereeder »
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boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2017, 10:41:05 PM »

So In this video, of  Diatonix tuning reeds.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PJdU8l4foRA
He is using a jig to pretune and the reeds that do not have valves, so does the shape of the jig keep the other reed from sounding or distorting the sound?
From what I read the sound changes when you apply the reed valve, true?


I only tune 'on the block outside of the instrument' if access is very restricted, or if there is a large tuning change to be made (say 10 cents or more).


Thanks Steve,
I'd say most of the reeds are 15 to 25 cents off some as much as 40 something and pushing the semitone mark ( which I'm assuming is fifty cents because readings are jumping between notes at that point), only a few are within 10 cents or less. Most are (this much)sharp on one side and then as much flat on the other, like I said earlier all over the place. But all seem to be within the semitone range. I can't really see a M or M+ Row because of this varied range, so I guess I'll just have to start somewhere and see if I can make them work. Still cleaning and trying to get them speaking as some are locked up, I'm making progress on this end at least. I'm also trying to make sure I have them in the right order because some were floating about when I got it. I got most correct so far, just that F row is weird.
BC


Edit to add: my plan is get things close then put on valves mount them in the blocks ,check the tuning in the blocks.
Then put blocks in the box and recheck.
I'm using a tuning table I whipped up to do the first tuning and or sounding to see what's what.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 10:49:01 PM by boxcall »
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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2017, 10:44:35 PM »

I have tried using a wire brush, but it just gets messy without really getting the wax off. I have found the blunt knife ideal.
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Theo

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2017, 10:50:33 PM »

If the reed pitches are that far out it is well worth while pretuning them all to 8 to 10 cents sharp before valving and waxing onto blocks.  If you tune the blocks outside the instrument (recommended if it’s your first go at tuning) then set your tuner with A=450.5 to compensate for the slight flattening inside the box.  Not all reeds will change by precisely the same amount but it will get you closer to where they should be.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 10:58:18 PM by Theo »
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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2017, 10:55:25 PM »

Thank you Theo
I will follow your advise.
I appreciate your help in this matter!!
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gettabettabox

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2017, 12:51:34 AM »

If the reed pitches are that far out it is well worth while pretuning them all to 8 to 10 cents sharp before valving and waxing onto blocks.  If you tune the blocks outside the instrument (recommended if it’s your first go at tuning) then set your tuner with A=450.5 to compensate for the slight flattening inside the box.  Not all reeds will change by precisely the same amount but it will get you closer to where they should be.


A=450.5 ?  Perhaps A=442.5
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 12:59:14 AM by gettabettabox »
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2017, 08:00:57 AM »

If the reed pitches are that far out it is well worth while pretuning them all to 8 to 10 cents sharp before valving and waxing onto blocks.  If you tune the blocks outside the instrument (recommended if it’s your first go at tuning) then set your tuner with A=450.5 to compensate for the slight flattening inside the box.  Not all reeds will change by precisely the same amount but it will get you closer to where they should be.


A=450.5 ?  Perhaps A=442.5
Yes, agreed. I think that must be a typo. If A is set to 450.5, that will be 40.8 cents sharp compared with A=440.  :o
If A is set to 442.55, it will be 10 cents sharp.
If A is set to 440.5 it will be 1.97 cents sharp, which is possibly what Theo meant.

In my experience, the pitch of reeds mounted on the block and sounded outside the instrument are generally about 2 - 5 cents sharp compared with the pitch when sounded in situ in the instrument. The difference seems to be most marked at the ends of the block and slightly less in the middle of the block.

The added problem of converting frequency in Hz to offsets in cents is obviated if you have an electronic tuner which reads directly in cents. Some electronic tuners allow you to set a fixed offset in cents, which is also very useful.
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Theo

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2017, 09:40:56 AM »

Should have said 440.5, slip of the digit! That’s a touch over 2 cents sharp.
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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2017, 06:16:11 PM »

Thanks for the clarfication, so after I valve reeds and wax to blocks set tuner to 440.5 = 1.9 cents sharp, got it.
when pretuning do I set to 442.5 = 10 cents ?

Is the reason for setting tuner to these setting verus leaving tuner on 440 and setting the reeds so many cents sharp using the 440 setting,
because it harder to zero in to what I want the reeds to be using 440?
I noticed that the tuner reading tends to fluctuate more the farther away from 0.
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Theo

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2017, 08:35:28 PM »

Yes you can reset A for the pretuning too,I sometimes do, but not always.  The pretuning doesn’t need to be exactly +10 cents, I’m usually aim to get between +8 and +12.  The time is better spent on the final tuning on the blocks.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2017, 10:21:50 PM »

Ok, thanks again Theo.

I just finish figuring out the reeds, so low notes on the G and C row and the F row we will just say is
F-----up  here's what I got low to high notes
G#/A#, C#/C#, D#/D#, F#/G#, A#/A#, D#/C#, F#/F#, G#/G#, D#/A#, F#/C# push /pull

I think someone was messing around with this box and didn't finish?           

I tried to match the G/C with accidentals layout no luck.

The B row of B/C is close if you take out the lowest note of the B row which has 11 buttons, so start my
Notes on the second button it's pretty close some reeds are right on, on others one side of reed needs tuning a semitone down. The G#/G# on the high end of notes doesn't fit.

Wonder if someone was going for G/C/B, I'm not sure what the bass side is yet.

🤔
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Theo

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #71 on: December 13, 2017, 10:54:24 PM »

G/C/B was a system that enjoyed brief popularity in the 1920s/30s,  so it’s possible that is what yours started out as.
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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #72 on: December 13, 2017, 11:09:57 PM »

Hi boxcall. Thanks for sharing your experience with us.
Looks to me like someone has indeed been at your F (or What appears now to be a B) treble row.
The G and C treble blocks look pretty much ordered, with a regularity of plates and appropriate ageing and neatness of wax.
I can't say the same for the inner row, which looks like one that maybe I've done! (I wasn't there... honest)
Looking forward to see how you 'play' this one now, nothing to lose?...ha!
I would like to help with funding your project by taking the beltuna off your hands, a reasonable price...after all, you are unlikely to have much free time to play tunes for a while?  ;)  (:)

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boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #73 on: December 13, 2017, 11:49:18 PM »

G/C/B was a system that enjoyed brief popularity in the 1920s/30s,  so it’s possible that is what yours started out as.
I've heard Paul Groff mention this sytem before, so I know that it was used. It could be a good box to try this system on,
and since I play D/C# it could be played the same C/B (one tone lower) with a G row as a spare.

This box did not start out this way, for the reeds in the F row are all changed out minus a couple that look older but don't fit in the key of F.
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boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2017, 12:10:07 AM »

Hi boxcall. Thanks for sharing your experience with us.
Looks to me like someone has indeed been at your F (or What appears now to be a B) treble row.
The G and C treble blocks look pretty much ordered, with a regularity of plates and appropriate ageing and neatness of wax.
I can't say the same for the inner row, which looks like one that maybe I've done! (I wasn't there... honest)
Looking forward to see how you 'play' this one now, nothing to lose?...ha!
I would like to help with funding your project by taking the beltuna off your hands, a reasonable price...after all, you are unlikely to have much free time to play tunes for a while?  ;)  (:)

That's weird I try to quote this in my last post but couldn't. ?

It might have been on it's way to a B row but never made it, kind of want to be B row:)
I do have a little money going into it now and time ( my wife asked me "what's taking you so long")
she has no idea how much more time I'll be investing in this. But I look at it as a learning experience and hopefully
I get something out of it that way and who knows maybe a box to play?

My Beltuna will not be for sale but might be heading to the shop for a tuning, (not mine) a professional shop. It didn't sound to bad to me
but the tuner I just got said some notes are off, probably would be good to do it hasn't been look at since I got it.
I'll keep you posted with the progress!!


Thanks for all the input so far!!

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #75 on: December 16, 2017, 05:38:42 PM »

couple of questions
first, is there any reason that instead of scratching the reed to raise the pitch that you couldn't sand it with a stick thing with emory paper?

I'm finding it easier to use this to lower the pitch verus file, so I was wondering if it works on raising the pitch. It's a little more dusty though.
I could see it becoming more difficult with the little reeds, I just started with a couple of the larger ones.

second , I'm having tuner readings that vary, so reading a bit low at start then jumping high, coming back somewhere in the middle
close to pitch, then maybe up or down again. The closer I get to pitch the less jumping I get but still a few cents. I set my tuner to 442.5
as suggested to get 10 cents sharp(reeds are outside the blocks). I suppose I'll shoot for a little flat as Steve stated it's easier to lower pitch
when reeds are mounted in the blocks. using this method I guess I would tune the other related bank a few cents sharper than the first.
So is this normal to have readings that vary a bit or maybe my bellow pressure is not constant enough?

I'm using my old Hohner 1040 bellows in the jig I made. this gives me a few seconds of air before I run out, jig could be made a little tighter
or maybe I need a bigger set of bellows.
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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #76 on: December 16, 2017, 05:52:28 PM »

couple of questions
first, is there any reason that instead of scratching the reed to raise the pitch that you couldn't sand it with a stick thing with emory paper?
I have used wet & dry paper glued to a thin piece of wood. It works well, once you have the size & shape, and is quite gradual. It's not as quick as scratching the reed, and not suited to doing lots of reeds.
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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #77 on: December 16, 2017, 06:07:31 PM »

Yes sandpaper on a stick is a good cheap and gentle tool for tuning. It leaves a nice smooth finish too.

I think your tuning bellows are too small.  I use bellows from a 120 bass piano accordions.  A good long sound makes it much easier to get a stable pitch reading.
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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #78 on: December 16, 2017, 06:44:50 PM »

Very recently, I inadvertently snapped a reed on a little old thing I'm playing about with, it has the famous "Steel Bronze" reeds. The one in question was a "D" from about two thirds the way up the keyboard, but all I could find in among my treasure trove was an "Eb" which was the same length but significantly wider.
To the rescue came a little nail filing gadget which I liberated from Number-One-Daughter's beauty shop. It's a stiff sponge thing covered with a fine abrasive, about an inch square and three inches long (so no use for working inside the box) but it was gentle enough to be able to file the sides of this quite small brass reed successfully. I also used it to tune some of the other reeds and to clean up the steel caps on the buttons. Excellent buy at about £3 for ten, highly recommended.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #79 on: December 16, 2017, 06:50:32 PM »

couple of questions
first, is there any reason that instead of scratching the reed to raise the pitch that you couldn't sand it with a stick thing with emory paper?
I have used wet & dry paper glued to a thin piece of wood. It works well, once you have the size & shape, and is quite gradual. It's not as quick as scratching the reed, and not suited to doing lots of reeds.

Yes, what Malcolm said - wet & dry carborundum paper glued to a thin sliver of wood is a good alternative to a file. It is mostly applicable to filing the reed tip (raising the pitch). A similar tool can be made from a manicurists' carborundum nail file - the sort which have a thin wood base. You can cut several thin strips from a single nail file. (Use an old pair of scissors to cut the strips)

These types of improvised files are less useful for flattening the underneath reeds. The best tool for this is a sharp scratcher with smooth sides which you can insert through the slot in the reed plate in order to scratch the belly of the reed. When working through the reed plate slot like this, it is important not to damage (i.e. inadvertently file or scratch) the sides of the slot. A smooth-sided scratcher avoids this, but carborundum paper glued to a wood stick, even if thin enough to pass through the reed plate slot, runs more risk of damaging the sides of the slot.
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