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Author Topic: Recording king repair  (Read 24993 times)

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boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #80 on: December 16, 2017, 06:55:26 PM »

Ok great, I like the sandpaper method, what would be the best grit
maybe 220 or finer?

I thought the bellows might be a part of it, I do have the piano
accordion  bellows , I guess I could use them but the box seems
like it could have potential to be repaired once the reeds get put
back in the blocks. Not like I need a new project.

What does your tuning table look like Theo? 
Mine is a smaller version of this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl8K8_TrI6c


Thanks for the tips, Steve & Edward
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boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #81 on: December 16, 2017, 07:02:10 PM »

I should add that I tried to make a scratcher out of a drill bit but it
wasn't working for me, I flattened the end after snapping a bit off
and it felt like it had sharp edges but wasn't doing it.
Maybe not sharp enough or my technique?
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Theo

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #82 on: December 16, 2017, 07:06:56 PM »

Sandpaper files are just as good for lowering pitch when the reeds are not on a block. 
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #83 on: December 16, 2017, 07:18:25 PM »

Here is a bit very good photo of a tuning table I made last year which breaks down for easier transport.  The photo is not very good,  but it gives you the idea. There is a treadle attached by a rod to the base of the bellows, and the lower end of the bellows is attached to a pair of arms that pivot at the front edge of each side panel.
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boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #84 on: December 16, 2017, 07:53:03 PM »

Nice. Thanks
Be good to see it in action to get a real feel for it,but I think I follow your explanation.

Well back to the shop to make another, bigger and better . This seems like it's almost or more important than all the other tools.

Do you just screw the frame to plywood or put a gasket on it?

On mine I made a rabbet around the edge of plywood just big enough for the inside of frame to slip over and deep enough for the holes in the bellow frame to be use to secure using nails, I also use a gasket on the top of bellow frame to help seal. This work ok tolerances could have been better, I might be able to improve on this. Nice part is bellows are still good with no damage or extra holes.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 07:56:42 PM by boxcall »
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malcolmbebb

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #85 on: December 16, 2017, 07:56:19 PM »

Ok great, I like the sandpaper method, what would be the best grit
maybe 220 or finer?
I think I used 400 carborundum paper. I can't remember the thickness of the wood I used, mainly because it was a bit I had lying around, but it fitted easily into (most) slots leaving clearance either side. Inspection of the reeds showed a smooth area along the centre line of the reed tongue with a small band untouched either side.
I used this because I couldn't get anywhere with a scratcher. The one I got from Charlie Marshall just skidded, even after grinding the end.
Subsequently I used the business end of a HSS drill, ground square and to a rectangular section, with a small wooden handle made from scrap. It needs to be held (rotated) to the correct angle to cut. I have two different sizes, no problem as I have a tin full of old drills ;D.  I'd tried using the blunt end, ground square, but couldn't get anywhere with it. 
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boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #86 on: December 16, 2017, 08:02:20 PM »

Thanks Malcolm, I'll try that, I was doing the same as your last sentence and having the same results.
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malcolmbebb

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #87 on: December 16, 2017, 08:13:20 PM »

Correction, just found it, it was 240. You were right  (:)
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boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #88 on: December 18, 2017, 12:24:37 AM »

Thanks Malcolm, I am using a 120 grit I had on hand.
It's working good with no pressure, moving 15 cents or more
on Pretuning so extra grit doesn't hurt. I will get fined for the next stage.
I got one block done,yay!
In the process I noticed a few reeds that have a little play side to side
should I try to tighten these? Maybe tap the rivet or just leave well
enough alone. I feel like these might pose a problem if they move
later when set in the block.
These reeds are not wiggling about but if nudged they could move.

One more tuner question , I just noticed under temperament setting
there is a root note setting does this need to be adjusted for each key
being tuned? I hope not🙏. I have the tuner set on equal temperament.
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Theo

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #89 on: December 18, 2017, 08:17:12 AM »

The root note setting make no difference in ET.

Reeds that easly move will definitely benefit from having the rivet tightened.  A loose rivet can lead to weaker sound, even when the tonge is correctly aligned.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #90 on: December 18, 2017, 06:04:13 PM »

Thanks Theo,
I thought that was the case with the root note for I changd it and it didn't seem to do much but figured I should check to be sure.
I'll try to tighten the rivets if I can remember which ones, duh. I guess they'll show themselves at some point.
what's the best method? maybe place rivet over a flat bit of metal laid on bench
and give rivet a couple taps with ball peen hammer. I don't have an anvil.

I'm finally figuring out the chord and bass side reeds. Standard GCF layout, I wondering if I was to do a B row
( I don't think I have much choice unless I get new reeds)
so make a GCB box if this layout would work?
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Theo

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #91 on: December 18, 2017, 06:24:49 PM »

To support the bottom end of the rivet you need a large heavy steel object. Top surface of A heavy vice can work well. 
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boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #92 on: December 21, 2017, 01:03:33 AM »

So making progress, I've got all the reeds pretuned (ten cents sharp) off the block, I'll be putting valves on next then wax them in blocks and retune. I figured out my problem with the high G reeds that was giving me fits ( part what Steve said on the other thread about the reed tongue curling inward after sanding to lower pitch causing it not to speak) , it was the block that I was using was to deep.
I should have known that after reading all the posts about shallow reed chambers ???

Anyway next question, My bass layout is the one on this site for GCF but it appears to have a B bass and chord instead of Bb. Well I'm doing a GCB now so would it be better to have a B for bass and chord and should I change the F major and C major to F# C# major to go with the B row?

I'd lose the F that goes with the key of C, so maybe not.

Maybe I should just ask what the best bass and chord layout is for a GCB box ?

And could I do it , I'd like to use what I've got but could change a couple reeds if needed.

I started tuning the chord reeds and ran into the B problem, I still have all the bass reeds to do.
Any advise appreciated
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triskel

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #93 on: December 21, 2017, 01:42:24 AM »

... My bass layout is the one on this site for GCF but it appears to have a B bass and chord instead of Bb. Well I'm doing a GCB now so would it be better to have a B for bass and chord and should I change the F major and C major to F# C# major to go with the B row?

You could have B basses, if you wanted, but that strikes me as being like all the old Hohner Black Dots, which had basses for the B row when they came out of the factory (and nearly everybody went straight to a tuner to get them changed when they bought one) until I finally got Hohner to switch to the Paolo Soprani layout on them. You should maybe think of the B row as your semitones, or "helper" row...

Plenty of G/C/Bs, but by no means all, have Stradella (piano accordion) basses.

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #94 on: December 21, 2017, 02:27:49 AM »

So making progress, I've got all the reeds pretuned (ten cents sharp) off the block, I'll be putting valves on next then wax them in blocks and retune....
You probably will not need valves on the very highest-pitched reeds. It is normal for the two smallest reed plates on each row not to have valves. The reeds speak more easily without them and they are small enough for air leakage around the sides of the reed tongues to be minimal.

If you look at the original photo which you posted here, you will see that there are no valves on the smallest reed plates; they haven't simply fallen off and got lost.

Also, it is usually advantageous to mount these smallest reed plates the opposite way round with the rivet end furthest from the chamber opening. Your photo also shows this. This helps prevent the reeds choking off, although it does make tuning the reeds in-situ in the instrument slightly more awkward. It is easiest to tune them on the reed block out of the instrument, having first noted what the actual pitch in the instrument is. Then remove the block from the instrument, tune down (or up) by the offset needed, replace the block, test and repeat as necessary.
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boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #95 on: December 22, 2017, 10:20:52 PM »

Thanks Steve, will do!
I 'm having trouble with the bass reeds, getting them to speak, I'm pretty sure it's my small tuning table bellows. I'll probably just valve them and put them back on block and check in the box.

I just noticed this box on eBay Hohner Venezia with the same grill as mine and small stradella bass.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-VENEZIA-Accordion-Button-Squeeze-Box-Made-in-Germany-Steel-Reeds-3-Rows/302559549772?hash=item4671f4594c:g:09sAAOSw9mpaLDR0

Could be a good box/ project ;) although a bit pricey as it probably needs repair.
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triskel

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #96 on: December 23, 2017, 02:27:19 AM »

I just noticed this box on eBay Hohner Venezia with the same grill as mine ...

Only that one's a few years older, and was made by Koch. Whilst the domed casein, screwed, buttons are a giveaway that a box has wooden levers.

boxcall

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #97 on: December 23, 2017, 03:41:03 AM »

I just noticed this box on eBay Hohner Venezia with the same grill as mine ...

Only that one's a few years older, and was made by Koch. Whilst the domed casein, screwed, buttons are a giveaway that a box has wooden levers.

Do the wooden levers make them less desirable as players?

I should have said, similar to my grill since mine is not a flat panel. Same pattern.


So back to the RK, I can't get those big bass reed to sound for long or clear enough to get a reading, so like I said I'll put things back together then adjust them in the box.

For the chord reeds I didn't have a problem getting a reading, I just had problems keeping track of what chord I was working on :o

The B chord reeds that needed to be adjusted down to Bb ( I decided to go with standard GCF bass layout) are brass or bronze and weren't working well. And since they needed to be Bb Bb/ D D / F F to make the chord ( thinks to self, hey that's what the piano accordion is for) I robbed from the piano  box, they worked out perfect. I could probably make a another box with the reeds that are left maybe a one row LMM, the reeds in that box are in very good shape and almost in tune. I almost should or could make a row in F row for the RK and toss the B row.

Some of the reeds in the B row had to be adjusted half a step and two one whole tone down to make them work, I got them where they need to be (I don't have a good scratcher) thanks to mister dremel.
I know it's not the tool of choice but it did get them there. I realized after using the bit in the tool, that I could take the bit in my hand and use it as a more controlled scratcher. I use it on some other reeds that needed small adjustments, it work pretty well like that.
So there is My confession, I'll probably go to reed tuners purgatory now. I feel better now though, I'm off to pray " thou shall not dremel"  a few times I guess ;D
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 03:44:30 AM by boxcall »
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triskel

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #98 on: December 23, 2017, 04:30:51 AM »

Do the wooden levers make them less desirable as players?

The only problem is that wood never stops moving with climatic conditions, and wooden levers may expand and/or twist, causing them to stick. But if they're still working alright, after something like 90 years, they may never cause you any trouble...

It's why they changed to metal levers though, so they could sell them anywhere in the World.

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Re: Recording king repair
« Reply #99 on: December 23, 2017, 09:27:32 AM »

I'm having trouble with the bass reeds, getting them to speak, I'm pretty sure it's my small tuning table bellows. I'll probably just valve them and put them back on block and check in the box...
Could well be the problem. Big bass reeds can be a bit sluggish to sound outside the instrument. Ideally your tuning bellows should be at least the same size as your instrument's bellows, if not a bit larger. Checking in situ in the instrument is a good idea.

Another tip: the start-up pitch of large bass reeds is usually flat and they often take a second or so to come up to the correct pitch. The effect is usually more pronounced on the push reeds compared with the pull reeds. To compensate for this, it's best to tune them deliberately a bit sharp, typically perhaps up to 2 - 3 cents, but sometimes more for the really growly reeds.

The rationale here is that during playing the bass notes are often only sounded for a short time - the 'oom' in an oom-pah accompaniment. Tuning the lowest-pitched reeds a bit sharp means that the transient 'oom' is more likely be in tune with the other associated bass reeds which are tuned in octave unisons. And on a sustained bass note, 2 - 3 cents sharp for the lowest pitched reed is not so out of tune that it clashes badly with the octave unison reeds.

Over the few years I've been doing this, one thing I've learned is that all tuning involves compromises. Ultimately your ear (and perhaps the ears of your discerning listeners) are the ultimate test of whether an instrument is 'in tune'.
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