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[Sandy Flett]

When I tried the Oakwood prototype at Sidmouth back in the summer, I noted that its button action was significantly lighter than that of my Dino Baffetti Carnival II, making the Oakwood a dream to play. Would easing the tension on the springs on my Carnival get me some way towards the action of the Oakwood? If so, how tricky a job is that (treble and bass) - best left to the experts? If it is not as simple as that, what other factors might be preventing it? I am aware that if the tension is too light some of the pallets could have trouble closing under high bellows pressure.

[playandteach]

I've just had Theo lighten the springs on the treble side of my Sander. He obviously knows what he's doing. It has made a huge difference -and not noticeably any less air tight under pressure. It is light but positive.
I know the next bit is impossible, but it's strange how you perceive things: the box SOUNDS better. I know it can't, but it feels like it does.
I did have 2 or 3 notes slightly corrected in pitch in both hands - but only 2 or 3 and it isn't those notes I'm talking about.
Perhaps the lighter finger pressure is matched by less heavy handed bellows use - I can't explain it.
He did have a couple of really useful tools, a careful approach and a few years of experience of course.

[Sandy Flett]

That's encouraging, thank you.

[Theo]

Most Italian boxes have torsion springs where it’s relativky easy to reduce the preload by bending the legs closer together.  This is what I did on Pete’s box.  On his box access to the springs was by withdrawing the axle rod, on boxes with metal action you can usually get to the springs by taking the back plate off the keyboard.  Be aware that the springs for each row may be different in thickness and/or length

[Rog]

The Carnival buttons have quite a bit of travel. Was this the same as the Oakwood? I have played a lightning fast Oakwood but I put it down to the exceptional reed response and a faster keyboard (than say a Dino) because the key travel was less than a Dino.

[Sandy Flett]

Most Italian boxes have torsion springs where it’s relativky easy to reduce the preload by bending the legs closer together.  This is what I did on Pete’s box.  On his box access to the springs was by withdrawing the axle rod, on boxes with metal action you can usually get to the springs by taking the back plate off the keyboard.  Be aware that the springs for each row may be different in thickness and/or length

Thanks, Theo. I think I would probably leave it to an experienced fettler.

[Sandy Flett]

The Carnival buttons have quite a bit of travel. Was this the same as the Oakwood? I have played a lightning fast Oakwood but I put it down to the exceptional reed response and a faster keyboard (than say a Dino) because the key travel was less than a Dino.

My memory suggests the travel was not that different, but if you pressed a button on one, then on the other, the Oakwood's was noticeably lighter. I consider my Dino fast enough, but I find my arm tendons begin to ache a little from the resistance of the buttons. I recall the Tommy I had was very light and did not give me the same trouble.

[squeezy]

Lightening the action by taking pressure off the springs can quite easily lead to a point where the pallets can lift  on their own when playing harder on the bellows - causing a rather nasty squeak!

In box construction, the only way to get a lighter action while still keeping a good pressure on the pallets is to make the levers leading to the buttons longer, which means the keyboard will jut out slightly more.  It's worth taking this in to account when you're analysing the actions of different boxes.

[Rog]

Yes and squeezy's point might explain why my Dino had button travel...the keyboard is quite narrow. On Pariselle boxes, for instance, the keyboard is fast with minimal button travel but sticks right on out there, like Hastings pier.
...
Like this....sorry Emmanuel only jesting..
https://goo.gl/images/Z5oo5r

[Helena Handcart]

I lightened the action on my beloved Binci by simply selling it and buying an Oakwood :) 

[Rob2Hook]

That's an interesting thought about the length of the lever arm.  Of course a longer lever requires more button movement for a given lift of the pallets, so although it will be lighter the extra movement would be expected to slow the action down.  I guess it's a question of balancing one against the other at the design/prototype stages.  Get it wrong and you'll have a lovely light, short action and be able to bend notes blues harp style! Alternatively you might end up with a clear, loud tone but heavy, insensitive action.

It always makes me wonder about these issues when I catch an Irish player on Youtube going at rocket speed on a Hohner 4-stop.  Still some of the personal ergonomics involved, then.  It probably helps to be big and burly with hands the size of JCB digger buckets.  I love the sound of a Hohner, but find them really hard work, which is why I just bought a Max (D).

Rob.

P.S.  Something else I can deafen Roger with next time I make it to the local session!

[Rob2Hook]

On another tack,  Sandy's Carnival II is basically the same mechanics as the Dino Binci.  I have played a couple of Carnivals and thought the action was heavier and slower than the Binci (always difficult to differentiate from the reed response an a quick thrash), so I guess there's some scope for improving the "base" model.  I wonder whether lighter springs were used?  I could always measure mine if that is of any help.  If that proved to be the case, it wouldn't be too hard to knock up a jig and make a new set for the Carnival using the wire gauge as on the Binci.

Rob.

[Sandy Flett]

... I wonder whether lighter springs were used?  I could always measure mine if that is of any help.

Rob.

Thanks for your inputs, Rob. How would you go about measuring the springs on your Binci?

[Rob2Hook]

I'd count the number of turns and measure the wire gauge with a micrometer.

Rob.

[Theo]

And the diameter of the coils makes a difference too.