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[Jozz]

from a purely technical point of view you could play Scottish anad Irish dance music on a CF box but it may sound a bit peculiar and  would only work if you are playing with just yourself.   D,G,A,etc are the  more usual keys used for that type of music. My view would be not to buy a CF box if scottish and irish dance music is your aim

george

Allright, I'm not really knowledgeable about the button layouts, but would it be doable to transpose D/G tunes to a C/F or a G/C box? Of course it depends on the tunes, but in general, considering Irish/Scottish. Is it just a case of 1 button up/down..(and a row switch)?

That's fighting talk round these parts

A lot would argue that the chromatic boxes and the fourth apart boxes are pretty much on a par in terms of difficulty, but others can argue that.  They tend to suit different styles of play, though. A couple of thoughts:

If the people you would play with play C/F boxes, that sounds like a good place to start. Round our way (Cornwall and Devon, it tends to be dominated by D/G players.

If you're accompanying a singer or singers you need something that is pitched in their range.

No, I will be the only button box player, but it happens that most boxes here are either C/F or G/C. So I'm thinking about trying one, and then maybe transposing whenever it suits the music. However, at the moment, I'm having a voice in my head that says it might be counter-productive and D/G is the easy way in. Maybe because of the vast amount of material that is aimed towards D/G at this forum 

[playandteach]

C/F and D/G are identical in learning by yourself, except that the C/F result is a tone lower. Every scrap of skill you develop on one is the same on the other. Obviously you won't be able to play along with D/G stuff. But you could learn the tunes, conning yourself that the notes and basses are D/G layout.
You may find it quite hard to switch your brain to D/G if you spend too much time learning the real notes and chords for C/F, so I'd pretend for now that it is a D/G box if you can. Others may disagree - who knows, if you really take to it and there is a C/F scene where you are you might be tempted...
As Theo says, if you have a freebie offer of a C/F try it out to see how weird it feels after your piano accordion experience.
Some find it really hard to get their heads round diatonic accordions.

[Jozz]

Thanks for pointing this out, I thought it would be possible to easily transpose but it's not. At least not according to key layouts on this site.

Now I'm even more inclined towards the D/G...

[Tone Dumb Greg]

What P&T said, but do you think you will be mostly playing by ear or from dots as you learn? If it's by ear it is easier to learn tunes when your instrument suits their key, although software can be used to pitch shift it. If it's the dots, or a combination of dots and ear (which I find easiest) then it won't matter so much. There is a pretty short learning curve into ABC and transposing to your key is easy using that, or notation software, and much discussed here.

If it were me and I wanted to play out and about, I would definitely look at instruments in keys that are popular locally, to begin with.

[Chris Rayner]

Thanks for pointing this out, I thought it would be possible to easily transpose but it's not. At least not according to key layouts on this site.

Now I'm even more inclined towards the D/G...

To some extent it depends what you mean by transpose.  It is perfectly possible to learn a tune with chords on a box in any key, and to play it in any other key simply by changing boxes.  I have a D/G box on which I am learning, and have recently plunged into G/C.  I can play all the tunes I learned in D/G on the new G/C, only not in D or G, but G or C.  If you have perfect pitch then you may find this confusing, but not insuperable.  I suggest you try the C/F box which you say is on offer, and see if you get on with it.  If you want to play in D/G after that then get a D/G instrument.

[Jozz]

What P&T said, but do you think you will be mostly playing by ear or from dots as you learn?

If it were me and I wanted to play out and about, I would definitely look at instruments in keys that are popular locally, to begin with.

I will be playing from dots, that is to say I aim to arrange our own stuff first, then play with me on melodeon, and my girlfriend singing and guitarring/uke. This can be done with any key instrument, but I think as mentioned before it will sound quirky.

To some extent it depends what you mean by transpose.  It is perfectly possible to learn a tune with chords on a box in any key, and to play it in any other key simply by changing boxes.  I have a D/G box on which I am learning, and have recently plunged into G/C.  I can play all the tunes I learned in D/G on the new G/C, only not in D or G, but G or C.  If you have perfect pitch then you may find this confusing, but not insuperable.  I suggest you try the C/F box which you say is on offer, and see if you get on with it.  If you want to play in D/G after that then get a D/G instrument.

I meant to say, playing tunes with dominant scales of D and G, but then played on a C/F instrument. So that it would sound exactly like on a D/G instrument. Now I found these layouts  I appreciate this looks like a bad idea 

I guess I'm trying to get it as right as possible the first buy, but that may be difficult.

Other considerations are: I am considering buying here, but that would mean shipping a box in the mail, which also doesn't sound apealling. Also have considered re-tuning, shuffling reeds etc. but then it will cost a bit too much for my liking, as I want to do this as a side project.

We'll see how it goes. I have some more reading and asking questions to do anyway.

[Theo]

I guess I'm trying to get it as right as possible the first buy, but that may be difficult.

If you manage to do that first time, without having played a diatonic then you will make history! 

There are many examples on this forum of people who have tried to do that, and as a seller and repairer of instruments I come across many more.  I've never met one player who chose the perfect box first time.   Hence my suggestion to get a box into your hands and try it, then you will be more likely to make a good choice.  In my own case a friend lent me a box for a short while and once I get it int my hands I knew it was for me.   That box was a CC# and I then was able to make a sensible choice of the tuning that was right for me (it was not CC#!)

[Tone Dumb Greg]

B/C, C#/D, C/C#, D/D#,D/C# etc. irish two row systems are chromatic treble side at least with basses set up for the most common keys.

.

Yes and no, they are in a sense chromatic  .

they are chromatic  - an instrument either is chromatic or isn't and there is nothing in between as chromatic simply means having the wherewithal to play in 12 major keys.

George - in pedant mode!

As is a fourth apart box with a helper row giving full set of accidentals, I suppose. They never seem to be called that, though

[Jozz]

Hence my suggestion to get a box into your hands and try it, then you will be more likely to make a good choice.

Yes, this makes a lot of sense of course.

I'm trying to work out pros and cons, as it is hard for me to get anything else outside G/C and C/F in my hands. I already held those, but can't say really played them. But for D/G, B/C or C/C# I have to travel some hours to places that offer them. Even then, prices are a lot higher than what is offered here in the Buy/Sell section. So, it is hard to make a wise decision.

However, I must say this site is brilliant and offers a wealth of info that I'm only just beginning to scratch the surface of.

I have this plan of gathering as much info as I can, then in a couple of weeks do some try-outs, then decide, surprise myself at christmas time with the chosen instrument, start learning from january, get an act together during summer and be ready to play next autumn/winter season...

I guess this makes ease of learning or speed to get results, my main priority. Of course in hindsight, my future self might laugh at me for this plan. 

[rmsandvik]

OMG -- not sure what I started with my question!  Certainly appreciate all the feedback, and that has led me to lean strongly toward a 48-60 bass piano accordion.  Any suggestions regarding brands?  There is no local accordion shop within 150 miles of me here in Central Oregon, so I definitely want to be able to return the device, bearing any necessary shipping/restocking charges.  Think it would be safest to buy "new", but there are so many brands, many if not most from China, that any help in steering me toward a "solid" brand would be great.

Thanks gents and ladies....

Dick

[playandteach]

There are 2 types of 48 bass. One is 12 by 4 which gives you all 12 bass notes and at least major and minor chords, the other is 8 by 6 which gives normally 4 fewer bass notes, but more chord options.
Depends if you need F# bass notes. For me the 12 bass options is the most versatile. I had a Scandalli set out like that with enough treble keys and a good enough sound, 3 voices (2 tremolo Middle reed voices with an octave lower option for the 3rd voice). It cost about $400 on ebay from Bulgaria. It was like this:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZqaUME49cQ

I have to say that from this point you'd be better off looking at piano accordion forums.

[george garside]

I  prefer the 12x4 bass   than the more common 8x6 bass .on the 12 x 4 the vertical rows starting from the  bellows  are counterbass, bass, maj chord, minor chord.  On the 8x6 the vertical rows are counterbass, bass, maj, min , 7th and diminished chords.

The choice is  the 12x4 has less range of chords but greater range of keys and the 8x6 has greater range of chords but less range of keys

george

[byteofthecherry]

I didn't think there were two row chromatic button accordions?

I would agree that if you're not intending to play traditional music, especially dance music, a unisonoric button or piano accordion probably makes more sense than a bisonoric diatonic button accordion. The downside is that piano and chromatic button accordions are more expensive. $650 might not cut it for a reasonable entry level accordion.

You sound just like me(see my thread  in 'teaching'...'my first melodeon')...also i've just asked a question about 'Russian Garmoshkas'..a diatonic/unisonic instrument in .check it out..