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[Winston Smith]

Every time I 'phone or email a certain person on here, looking for yet more advice, I'm  in fear and trembling as to (without the slightest hint that it might ever transpire) when he's going to say "Enough is enough, I've got better things to do!" So here I am, again showing my ignorance, asking inane questions of those of you who are expert, sorry.

I've got this A/D 17 button, 4 spoon bass thing. The spoons are 2 (octave) bass notes each; D/A and A/E. The chords are of 4 reeds each; (from low note to high)
F# A D F#/E A C# E and
E A C# E/E G# B E.
My problem is that I don't really know what these chords are, although they sound like D A A and B to me, can this be right?
Two of the bass reedplates have snapped reeds, so I'm trying to make a replacement set up from my collection of old PA reeds, and wondering whether the E bass shouldn't really be a B; to match with the chord (if indeed the chord is a B, lol!)
Help please?

[Theo]

that is D/A and A/E

[Winston Smith]

Thank you Theo.
It's a bit frightening to think that I heard it as a B (being the next note up from what I know is an A) when I learn to play tunes by ear???

[Sebastian]

F# A D F#/E A C# E and
E A C# E/E G# B E.
My problem is that I don't really know what these chords are, although they sound like D A A and B to me, can this be right?

It may be easier on paper. You have to rearrange the three notes of the chords in intervals of thirds (so that you skip one note of the scale, e. g. C-[d]-E-[f]-G is a C chord). Than the lowest note is the name of the chord.

D-F#-A: D major
A-C#-E: A major
E-G#-B: E major

(B major would have: B-D#-F#)

[Winston Smith]

"C-[d]-E-[f]-G is a C chord)"

Righy-ho! But what happened to the C#, the Eb and the F# when counting the notes?

I expect that to follow up on this would require a full course in music theory, so we're possibly all just better off if I'm allowed to ask the odd daft question, eh?

[Pearse Rossa]

"C-[d]-E-[f]-G is a C chord)"

Righy-ho! But what happened to the C#, the Eb and the F# when counting the notes?

Think in terms of major scales. See this chart.

[Theo]

No it’s a simple answer just the notes of one scale.  In this case the C scale.

[playandteach]

If you want to count all the notes (semitones) Then a major chord is Chord name note, then up 4 semitones, then up 3. Minor is chord name note, up 3 semitones, then up 4.

[Pearse Rossa]

"C-[d]-E-[f]-G is a C chord)"

Righy-ho! But what happened to the C#, the Eb and the F# when counting the notes?

Think in terms of major scales. See this chart.

This basic theory is easy to follow and very useful.

[Gena Crisman]

I've got this A/D 17 button, 4 spoon bass thing. The spoons are 2 (octave) bass notes each; D/A and A/E. The chords are of 4 reeds each; (from low note to high)
F# A D F#/E A C# E and
E A C# E/E G# B E.
Two of the bass reedplates have snapped reeds, so I'm trying to make a replacement set up

May I ask, the structure of some of those chords seems strange to me, For some reason I (naïvely) expect the 4th reed to be an octave double of the root note, but instead D has 2 f#s (third), both As have two Es (fifth) and the E chord has two Es (root). Is that a sensible thing to be the case? Is it a consequence of something like trying to fit appropriate reeds onto each side of the shared plate? What kind of an impact does that have on the sound of the chords?

[Winston Smith]

Thanks Pearce, that chord chart is the business!
Thanks everyone for the other well meaning posts, but they just don't click; I must be an old dog! (I did suggest that we should have left it at Theo's perfectly adequate answer.)
Now back to my cupboard, and my treasure trove of old rubbish, to find some reeds I can butcher!

[Sebastian]

I expect that to follow up on this would require a full course in music theory

False hope. 

[Curamach]

Gena, I am no expert on chords, but to somewhat hear the difference you can play them on the right hand side. F#ADF# and F#ADA (and why not- DF#AD). They each have a slightly different sound, I don't know how to describe it. I suspect whichever note is doubled has a bit of extra punch, and the lowest note seems to control part of the sound.

I have never felt a need for fear and trembling here (unlike some other sites) most everyone seems glad to take us where we we are and help out. As a very inexpert melodeonist, I appreciate that spirit.

[playandteach]

F# A D F#/E A C# E and
E A C# E/E G# B E.
Two of the bass reedplates have snapped reeds, so I'm trying to make a replacement set up

May I ask, the structure of some of those chords seems strange to me, For some reason I (naïvely) expect the 4th reed to be an octave double of the root note, but instead D has 2 f#s (third), both As have two Es (fifth) and the E chord has two Es (root). Is that a sensible thing to be the case? Is it a consequence of something like trying to fit appropriate reeds onto each side of the shared plate? What kind of an impact does that have on the sound of the chords?

You're right they are an odd mix of doubles. Generally it isn't always a great idea to double the 3rd. I doubt that it is chord sharing as the doubled 3rd in the D chord (the F#) doesn't appear in any other chord. It suspect it is a tessitura thing - where the aim is to keep all the chords as balanced in zonal placement as possible whilst having a spread of an octave. The chords that have E in them are all within the E octave, there is no E in a D chord (like the old there's no F in bananas joke), so they've gone for a tone up instead.

[Theo]

It suspect it is a tessitura thing - where the aim is to keep all the chords as balanced in zonal placement as possible whilst having a spread of an octave. The chords that have E in them are all within the E octave, there is no E in a D chord (like the old there's no F in bananas joke), so they've gone for a tone up instead.

That is common practice in chord voicing for boxes, though I've never seen 3rds doubled before.  You could tune one of the F# reeds down to D by loading the tip with solder.

[Gena Crisman]

Thanks for explaining! I'll have a go tomorrow, playing the notes as Curamach suggested - I tried on a virtual piano initially but it wasn't really able to sell it - Box should work better. I'll probably also see what notes there are my bass end, just because I'm curious about their inversions now.

Perhaps the slightly changed emphasis is responsible for Edward's prior disposition regarding a B chord? On paper it seemed clear what each would be. Best of luck in getting it sorted, at any rate!

[Winston Smith]

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed.
Theo's suggestion of tuning an F# down to a D is appealing, but that chord is lovely and low, and sounds very D-ish without any alteration. It's rather queer, with Gena reminding me of the B - E mix-up in my ears.
I'll get back to it this afternoon, when Number-One-Son goes out (his room is next to my cupboard!).

[squeezy]

Gena, I am no expert on chords, but to somewhat hear the difference you can play them on the right hand side. F#ADF# and F#ADA (and why not- DF#AD). They each have a slightly different sound, I don't know how to describe it. I suspect whichever note is doubled has a bit of extra punch, and the lowest note seems to control part of the sound.

I have never felt a need for fear and trembling here (unlike some other sites) most everyone seems glad to take us where we we are and help out. As a very inexpert melodeonist, I appreciate that spirit.

They're called inversions and can be used to create very different effects in a piece of music.  You're right about the lowest note having a big impact - our ears hear that as the bass or root.  If that root is the root note of a chord it can sound very full and conclusive.  If you have the fifth of the chord at the root it sounds much less definite (like playing a D bass with a G chord) and the music feels like it should still resolve.  If you have the third as the root (B with a G chord) the music feels like it's on it's way somewhere else and it's often used as a passing chord.

[Steve_freereeder]

Castagnari chord voicing

The voicing of the chords used by Castagnari includes root position, 1st and 2nd inversion chords. Their rationale seems to be to keep the chord notes close together in pitch without any of the component notes being excessively high or low. To me this makes for a very nice sonorous sounding set of chords. I've found that some manufacturers, (Dino Baffetti comes to mind) can have chord voicings/inversions which have rather high-pitched notes on some chords. To my ear that can sound somewhat strident. I much prefer the more uniform sweet-sounding Castagnari voicings. Hohner chords are usually nicely spaced too.

See chart below for Castagnari standard D/G chord voicings. It's nominally for a Mory, but I've found it equally applicable for other Castagnari models too.

[playandteach]

In addition to Squeezy's points: an inversion is only concerned with the bass note. Let's say you have two bars of a C chord followed by an F chord - Squeezy is dead right a C bass note and C chord, followed by an E bass note and the same C chord will give a direction of intent to the accompaniment on its way to F.

However the actual chord voicing is different to whether it is an inversion or not. So a C bass note with the chord notes E,G,C in ascending order is a root position chord even though the chord is in first inversion. I'm not saying it will sound the same, but the difference in the chord notes between E,G,C,E or G,C,E,G is because of the spacings and the doublings, and which note is on top etc. They're all root position if the C bass note is also being played. If this seems pedantic, it isn't. I'm not saying anything different really about the inversions, just that the voicings are equally important.
If anyone wants to know why we don't double the 3rd, do ask. That's a different point and maybe a different thread.