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Author Topic: wood type influence sound?  (Read 11993 times)

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waltzman

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wood type influence sound?
« on: August 07, 2009, 10:21:49 PM »

I would be interested to know if anyone feels that the type of wood used to construct the box has much influence on the sound.
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HallelujahAl

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Re: wood type influence sound?
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2009, 07:58:22 AM »

I'm no expert but I would say most definitely yes!
AL
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Chris Ryall

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Re: wood type influence sound?
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2009, 08:42:03 AM »

I am an expert! And I would say .. probably .. in my experience ... according to the literature .. on the other hand ... ;D

More seriously - my new box's whole fingerboard vibrates when I use the lower notes and there is manifestly some serious accoustic in play. I cannot believe the structure and materials of the rest of the instrument are not important. "Strads" have now been CT scanned. AFAIR their 'special' tone mostly comes from sanded back thinness of the panels, but the wood the luthier used will determine stiffness, and that massively influences resonance.

Gosh, I'm beginning to actually sound like an expert! (Mostly bluff).
« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 08:49:08 AM by chrisryall »
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xgx

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Re: wood type influence sound?
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2009, 10:32:09 AM »

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Chris Ryall

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Re: wood type influence sound?
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2009, 10:58:37 AM »

Counter example then:  Try and imaging an accoustic guitar where the sound board doesn't vibrate. Or for that matter why the tone on an electric is so different.

Harmonic theory would suggest that any resonance will affect the overtones of an instrument and hence its tone to the ear.  Isn't that one reason that our reeds are best final-tuned in situ?

As to which wood is best - I'll bow to the luthiers (who all seem to be away at festivals).  I suspect their finesse in planing back the wood is the dominant affect.   
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jb

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Re: wood type influence sound?
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2009, 11:27:32 AM »

Counter example then:  Try and imaging an accoustic guitar where the sound board doesn't vibrate. Or for that matter why the tone on an electric is so different.
Quite. The essential purpose of the soundboard is precisely to amplify and shape the sound of the guitar. So the quality of its vibrations matter crucially for the sound of the guitar. I'm not aware of any corresponding component in a melodeon. Happy to be corrected though.

Harmonic theory would suggest that any resonance will affect the overtones of an instrument and hence its tone to the ear.  Isn't that one reason that our reeds are best final-tuned in situ?
And I suppose the vibrations in my mandolin strap must produce some soundwaves. But surely nothing that contributes to or influences the overall sound of the mandolin itself.

That's not to say, of course, that the shape and construction of the melodeon don't affect its sound. You only have to take off the grill to realise that they do. But it's another thing to say that the vibrational qualities of the materials affect the sound. I'm not denying that they might, though.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 11:52:57 AM by jb »
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pete /acorn

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Re: wood type influence sound?
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2009, 11:52:12 AM »

Hi,
All woods have a different resonance,in fact if you try different melodeons,say Castagnari's of the same model but made from say padouk or cherry they sound different therefore material selection is important.
I actualy sorted through some Padouk the other day and when you sound tap the different boards they had different sounds so when used in instruments each one will  not be the same.
I feel that when purchasing any instrument,especialy more so nowadays with more mechanised manufacturing proccesses,the slight differences in timber structure will give a more variable sounding instrument.

hope this helps.

Pete
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waltzman

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Re: wood type influence sound?
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2009, 01:24:45 PM »

Hi,
All woods have a different resonance,in fact if you try different melodeons,say Castagnari's of the same model but made from say padouk or cherry they sound different therefore material selection is important.
I actualy sorted through some Padouk the other day and when you sound tap the different boards they had different sounds so when used in instruments each one will  not be the same.
I feel that when purchasing any instrument,especialy more so nowadays with more mechanised manufacturing proccesses,the slight differences in timber structure will give a more variable sounding instrument.

hope this helps.

Pete
  This is exactly the type feedback I was looking for.  As a guitarist, I know from my own experience that wood type does have a significant effect on tone but I have no such experience with accordions.  The method of sound production is so different between the two.  Intuitively I would expect the wood type to make less of a difference with an accordion.  Interesting that you mentioned padouk.  What prompted my question was considering ordering an accordion made of padouk.  I've done some woodworking in the past with it and I know it to be a very dense and hard wood compared to cherry.  I was  concerned that it might make the tone more brash or harsh.  Someone suggested to me that the combination of padouk wood with brass reeds made a particularly good sounding accordion.  Anyone have experience with this combination?
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pete /acorn

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Re: wood type influence sound?
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2009, 02:24:16 PM »

Hi,
As I said  if you get the chance try two differet instruments,same model,same manufacturer with different timbers.Manufacturers have now instaled more mechanised approach to building therefore there will not be the same variations because of slightly different material thicnesses etc.you can then judge for yourself the tone differences.
Sound,tone likes and dislikes are very personal therefore what one person likes may not be acceptable to yourself.

Pete
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risto

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Re: wood type influence sound?
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2009, 03:41:53 PM »

Hi,
All woods have a different resonance,in fact if you try different melodeons,say Castagnari's of the same model but made from say padouk or cherry they sound different therefore material selection is important.
....

Pete

The problem with this comparison is that there are so many other things affecting the tone in accordions which makes it a brave conclusion to say that it's all because of the wood; reeds and slight differences in tremolo to start with can make an accordion sound totally different. As I see it, the 'thickness of the wood /area of vibrating membrane' ratio is so large in melodeon constructions that I would question the comparability with guitars or violins etc..
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melodeon

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Re: wood type influence sound?
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2009, 05:19:11 AM »

I believe the wood of the chassis may make a difference but the shape and depth of the reed block and its cavities, plus the various openings and the volume of the box , the reeds themselves and tuning have a much more profound effect ( affect) on the sound.

As top the wood type.. it is not the wood type but the density that would make the difference

Padauk  is porous....cherry is not...  I have several planks of padauk including Andaman.. my favorite....
But if the density is the same one species or plank to another species or plank  I think this would lead to the same result all else being equal ( which is impossible)

The absolute best accordeon I ever played was a cheapie pre war Italian number  2 row 3 reed    made from Beech ply   maple and some erzats spruce for the reed blocks

The workmanship externally was  good, internally  sloppy as hell  but  what a sound.. never heard that again

The box was not for sale and the owner does not play..he  has a tattoo parlor and the box  sits on a shelf as a prop.

Martin builds a hundred thousand plus guitars per year.. thousands of any given model  and it is all case by case..  some are good   some are dogs and some are brillinat.

Same goes for accordeons.  Even the most admired of makers puts out the occasional clunker, and a hack will turn out a very good box.


I have my own choice of timbers which I think make a decent box and they are so simple and so plebian...   and would not appeal to a boutique buyer

I belive in best desgn, best materials ( not best looking,  which is Martin guitar and some famous cajun accordeon builders philosophy) ,  and  best workmanship

When the famous cajun builders price their accordeons  it is not based on the result but on the figure of the wood.....
and I personally hav eowned some flamed koa and flamed maople boxes that were pigs and some non figured boxes that were excellent


But my thoughts about sound production consider the wood quality last...in terms of "pretty"  I think in terms of structure...

And I am in the minority

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Chris Ryall

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Re: wood type influence sound?
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2009, 08:51:38 AM »

With you on in being well down the list of effects. However I'm still left with the fact that on my Gaillard - which has tone I could spread on toast and eat - the whole wood of the right end vibrates.

This was proof to me (per this particular maker) that the harmonics enter the structure of the wood, and obviously they will then add to the general sound emitted to the air.  So it isn't just about vibration of reed and surrounding air, or resonance in the chamber.

>:E Those of nervous disposition should cease reading here  >:E

I've looked for this effect on my other kit. It's less pronounced on the Oakwood, but its a D/G so 2 x higher frequencies. I've also a C/G Parigi with unusually sweet tone. Playing its lower notes played right hand, both ends vibrate.  Of course the musically important frequencies are too high to feel. I'd need equipment.

At the risk of boring people (you were warned), sound and its propagation is a complex issue in more than a colloquial sense. Sound has frequency and phase, and its physics has to be described by a pair of numbers. They use 'complex' numbers, as these mysteriously make the sums come right.  A pure tone could be 0.1234+0.567x(-1).  (yup, that's square root of -1 = a 'complex' number)!

Acoustic behavior of a material is then described not as density (one factor I agree)) but as its acoustic impedance Z. To add to our headaches Z is of course also a 'complex' number.

To make just one example .. in transmission of vibrations of the reed plate (defo part of our 'equation') to the wood of the block, and then on into the wood of an instrument, the power will be reduced and there will also be a slight phase shift.

The amount transmitted at any Z interface is generally in inverse proportion the difference of the squares of the acoustic impedances (this is how sonar works, big Z change = strong reflection). So in practice keeping the wood the same within an instrument will aid such propagation.

There are 'relaxation processes' which absorb the sound. I've not studied these, but in an instrument they are clearly something you don't want. Diffraction can also occur in an inhomogeneous medium. I suspect this is not important here as the wavelength of sound in wood is several cm. In practice sound would not 'see' the grain

Finally we have dynamics - as a reed starts to vibrate the harmonics are always very different. But I think we are talking more of tone in 'steady state' here.

The same considerations affect electric circuits and radar. There's more for the intrepid here. Doubtless  further affects in the small print!

  "Thus endeth the lesson"  :Ph

How does all this affect yer average maker? Well I doubt any do the sums (some have problems adding up your bill correctly)!  But there is (as fact) a vast difference in tone between their instruments.

The Z of the wood used will I honestly believe be a factor in this. but this brings in its dynamics as well as density.  In carpentry terms that's grain direction, stiffness, density, presence of knots .. before we get on to thickness and cut ...

I think in practice they all just experiment and use what sounds nice. We really do need some practical input from a Luthier here. But they all seem to be at festivals.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 08:58:29 AM by chrisryall »
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rees

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Re: wood type influence sound?
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2009, 01:04:20 PM »

Add to your equation:
Reeds waxed or pinned/screwed to gaskets.
Removable reed-blocks or glued in reed-blocks.
Gasket between reed-blocks and fondo (soundboard thingy) or not.
Thickness and type of fondo.
Varnished reed-blocks.
Scalloped reed chambers.
Register slides.

The list goes on. It's no wonder we can't do the sums!
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risto

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Re: wood type influence sound?
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2009, 01:19:30 PM »


.... - the whole wood of the right end vibrates.

This was proof to me (per this particular maker) that the harmonics enter the structure of the wood, and obviously they will then add to the general sound emitted to the air.  So it isn't just about vibration of reed and surrounding air, or resonance in the chamber.
...

A box with one side missing - like both ends of a bb are - is quite rigid a construction in terms of mechanics of m.. and with say a 6 mm wall thickness probably not much of an acoustic amplifier. Other thing which comes to mind are the bellows. If they start to vibrate - more likely than the ends - this vibratation will (or may) travel and be felt at the ends. Differences in bellows may also affect the tone of an accordion in some amount.
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Re: wood type influence sound?
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2009, 01:27:01 PM »

OK, tried it with the left end between knees and hand on bellows. Definitely stronger vibration in the wood than in the bellows. There's a small vibration at the left end (and this has to be air/bellows tranmitted).

Rees: Those are constuction details, rather than material. What's your wood choice, and why?
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pete /acorn

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Re: wood type influence sound?
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2009, 02:13:54 PM »

Quote from: Rees link=topic=2157.msg 22707#msg 22707 date=1249819460
Add to your equation:
Reeds waxed or pinned/screwed to gaskets.
Removable reed-blocks or glued in reed-blocks.
Gasket between reed-blocks and fondo (soundboard thingy) or not.
Thickness and type of fondo.
Varnished reed-blocks.
Scalloped reed chambers.
Register slides.

The list goes on. It's no wonder we can't do the sums!


Hi,re gasketed reeds,I spoke to Cooperativa in Vercelli,Italy about this and they said that they used this method because it made sound more precise by cutting down resonance transfer between reeds ie don't know if this correct or not.


Pete
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UK and international customers catered for
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risto

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Re: wood type influence sound?
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2009, 02:28:51 PM »

Not qualified to prefer any material for box construction, but I noticed the huge change in tone when I got new reeds in my Morgane so atleast I know what that does. Other views based merely on engineering which is my profession.

PS. You pointed that to Rees, but never mind ;)
« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 02:31:18 PM by risto »
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LJC

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Re: wood type influence sound?
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2009, 03:06:07 PM »

Surely almost every part of the construction contributes to the sound. You could probably argue round or triangular strap brackets would because of the difference in mass effecting the vibration of the casing, but the effect of this sort of stuff pales in comparison to changes that occur between players, playing outdoors etc.
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melodeon

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Re: wood type influence sound?
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2009, 04:03:12 PM »

And of course  Strad  sat down and did the math before he laid a tool to wood.  
Strad had dogs.  One former wood client of mine owned 2 Strads.  One was a plain Jane with incredible tone.  The other fancy and named after some "royal" and the owner declared it a wall hanger and not worthy of play. .  Again it is case by case.

In the real world math has no bearing on a builders result.

There is a group of luthiers who call themselves the left brain builders.  They are the science guys. And they have no better results than the traditionalists who build by experience and intuition.  Some consider them geeks with little talent.  I wouldn't go that far but the results speak for themselves, and they don't have waiting lists.


One reasonably predictable line of accordeons is Hohner.   Let's take for example an Erica.  Wood body encased in plastic and the usual reed configuration with removeable blocks.
Not a great deal of difference one to another in spite of material changes over the years.  Exception might be the reeds.  From H  with zinc to H with aluminum to T to whatever they are using now.  But the "general" sound is the same.  Why... Wet  sloppy tuning  , is a hallmark of Hohner.

A couple years back Hohners new accordeon guy  Gilbert Reyes.. decided to make an upgraded Corona.. now called the xtreme.  He asked for input as to the elements that would cause it to be a superlative instrument.  Many suggestions were made and adopted except one.. "higher quality reeds".
These accordiens had supposedly upgraded components and wood selection, improved actions and bellows.. but the same reeds as used in the Corona Classic.
 Upgraded reeds were  unanimously rejected by the "suits" at Hohner because it would kill the "Hiohner" signature sound.  So the compromise was to more carefully tune the reeds and dry them out a bit.  Word has it that their tuner assigned this task for this specific group of XTREME accordeons complained that they sound bad, and she did not enjoy tuning them.

Result.. these Xtreme boxes sounded like a slightly dried out Hohner Corona but still sounded every bit a HOHNER.

Personally I am not a fan of walnut,  a wood here in America termed the "king of timbers"  And Gaillard uses only Walnut ?  Why...   Aesthetics.
I would bet that if Gaillard chose to use cherry, the results would be near the same.

Briggs also chooses to use walnut and boldy says only American Walnut. Again I would suggest that if he chose butternut or elm  the results may be similar.

I would suggest that because public perception has deemed Walnut THE  elegant wood associated with expensive furniture.. this may also be a motivating factor in the choice of walnut.

Castagnari uses mostly cherry or walnut , and sometimes maple and a long time ago elm ( one of my favorites) and occasionaly, padauk. I'll bet in a blind test with  5 Tommys, all of different woods,  there would be no better than a 50 - 50  chance of ten blindfolded folks  correctly guessing the timber used.

In an exchange with Harry Geuns... he had much to say about sound production and projection in a free reed contraption and little of it had to do with choice of species.

Another observation.. when I tried to buy an accordeon fornm a one-off builder..  the majority of the discussion ( one sided) had to do with the look of the accordeon.  All about choice of the color and graiin of the various timbers and little thought about the resultant tone each might produce.
I agree with part of this , in that I think the timber choice has little to do with the sound  but the obsession over the look and the customers choice was fascinating.  I mean WTF,  the look  being premier in the construction and purchase of a rather expensive instrument.
So, part of me says  that the builder already knows it it is inconsequential so dwells on the only (supposed) factor over which the buyer might have control.   ereg a sales  tool  (ploy)..  
 C U S T O M ......   I have seen some of these cosmetic wonders  and while some may think them attractive ,and I even heard "cute" , most to me have been fashion disasters. and self indulgent units intended to attract attention.
No criticism here of the resultant tone.. but I just don't care for fragile and precious.
I always get a kick out of Cajuns talking about one box has better tone than another.  Largely they are cookie cutter units   with the same components from the same suppliers and many  made with parts made by a subcontractor.    ... Just an observation.  YMMV




« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 11:39:24 PM by melodeon »
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rees

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Re: wood type influence sound?
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2009, 05:16:35 PM »



Rees: Those are constuction details, rather than material. What's your wood choice, and why?

That may be so, but those details affect the sound far more than the type of wood.
As to wood choice and why, you may as well ask, what colour is the wind? I cut whatever piece of wood I feel like cutting on the day. Some days are cherry days, some are maple or walnut or afrormosia or yew or lilac or sycamore or chestnut.
All my accordions sound good, but each one sounds different. I have a rough idea how it will sound before I start, but the full character is never revealed until the final screw goes in.
I treat it as a dark art not a science.
They don't grow on trees you know!
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