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Author Topic: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)  (Read 4339 times)

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Jesse Smith

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Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« on: January 24, 2018, 05:27:55 PM »

I am working on a tune called "The Blue Joak", which I am learning by ear off of John Kirkpatrick's record "One Man and His Box". This is a jig and is played with a really pronounced staccato emphasis on the first beat of each bar, so that the first beat is a strong "HUP!" inflection. JK is playing this on his B/C/C# box and has a lot more options for bass than I do on the two row melodeon but I am trying to keep the fundamental swing and punch of it in my playing.

My question is whether I need to be cautious about how much welly I'm putting into the bellows when cutting a note off very sharply on the beat like this. We all learn the golden rule of "Never move the bellows without pressing either a note or the air button!" And this is the very first thing I tell family and friends before letting them have a go at the box. But does normal playing risk any damage to the bellows or is this caution really only meant to stop you from forcing the bellows to move when they don't want to? Do I need to hold back or is this not something I should worry about?

Any other suggestions for the best way to get this kind of punch in my playing? It's a version of JK's "short um, long pah" advice for dance music which I already try to apply as much as possible. Perhaps some of it is simply a matter of becoming so comfortable and fluent with the tune and basic playing technique that you can really give your focus to the dynamics. Hopefully that comes with time! (I am now two and a half months into playing the melodeon and fairly pleased with how things are coming together. I can get through a credible version of Uncle Bernard's Polka without any mistakes maybe half the time. ;))

« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 05:36:09 PM by Jesse Smith »
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Tiposx

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Re: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2018, 05:37:09 PM »

Worst thing that can happen is that the pallets rise a little to let air out, then come back down again. No problem. If you push incredibly hard to could bust the bellows, but personally I couldn't.
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Theo

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Re: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2018, 05:48:12 PM »

That business about not pushing the bellows with pressing a button is a complete myth.  I don’t know how it started, but it’s bunkum!  I must have repaired hundreds of boxes, and seen just about every sort of damage, but never seen anything that could be blamed on not pressing a button while moving the bellows.  Bellows are actually pretty tough. After many years of enthusiastic play they can wear out of course, but don’t worry about playing enthusiastically, it is what the box is for!
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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george garside

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Re: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2018, 07:46:38 PM »

the sharp cut off does not necessarily require ''a lot of welly''   Its a technique that can be used  at different volumes of playing  i.e. using different  overall pressure . If I am playing amplified   I play relatively quietly but with whatever technique is required to make a tune sound the way I want it and leave the  sound system  to do its stuff.

george 
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Jesse Smith

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Re: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2018, 03:35:04 AM »

Well, that is reassuring to hear. I had been a little nervous about accidentally putting too much pressure on the bellows (they may be as old as I am), but good to hear I don't need to hold back.

George, point taken about being able to play with dynamics at any volume. I meant that I was concerned about swelling the pressure and then closing the pallet to cut the sound short.
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george garside

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Re: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2018, 01:03:45 PM »

for what its worth  I often pre pressurise the bellows before pressing a button - I call it supercharging -.  Its a very useful technique if you want an increase in volume on an individual note  .  I find it works best if playing the bulk of a tune at about half throttle   as that leaves plenty of room to go louder or quieter here and there

george
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Re: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2018, 02:13:13 PM »

the sharp cut off does not necessarily require ''a lot of welly'' 

Quite. It's worth pointing out, even though it may be obvious, that the punch and crispness is not about loudness, it's about the silences between notes.

The OP mentioned JK's accordion basses too: again punchiness in the basses is not about how loud they are, it's about taking your fingers OFF the buttons to punctuating the notes with silences (something that piano accordionists are notoriously bad at, resulting in lots of volume but no bounce.) Actually JK doesn't do that so much with the button accordion: he seems to rely on bellows pressure control to get his dynamics, but you need strong arms for that.
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Jesse Smith

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Re: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2018, 02:21:25 PM »

Actually JK doesn't do that so much with the button accordion: he seems to rely on bellows pressure control to get his dynamics, but you need strong arms for that.
I can imagine! My left arm has been getting a bit sore just working on this tune and trying to get the rhythm crisp, and that's just on a Pokerwork.

Drifting off topic but related to the arm strength issue, does anyone know what the reed voicing of JK's B/C/C# is? Is there a high octave set of reeds in there? Trying to transcribe it from the record and sometimes the separate voices can confuse things a bit. I can only imagine that box must require some strength to keep under control, especially with the full Stradella basses.
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Re: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2018, 02:23:24 PM »

And JK plays chords on the right had as well most if not all the time he is playing.
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george garside

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Re: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2018, 02:54:38 PM »

not absoluitely  certain but Johns box is probably tuned MMML . He plays the BCC# with much more energetic bellowing than most players of that system  and I find  the BCC# requires less left arm work than my 3 voice 2 row DG serenellini due to the  greater air volume of the bellows


george
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richard.fleming

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Re: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2018, 03:31:41 PM »

This thread caused me to listen to John Kirkpatrick for the first time. Am I right in thinking most people on mel.net want to play like that?
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Jesse Smith

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Re: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2018, 03:57:48 PM »

This thread caused me to listen to John Kirkpatrick for the first time. Am I right in thinking most people on mel.net want to play like that?
I would think "most" is an overstatement, but I think it's fair to say that Kirkpatrick is considered one of the masters of the English traditional dance music genre. Other genres are available, as they say!
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george garside

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Re: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2018, 08:40:29 PM »

Furthur to Anahata's comments   about the silences between notes.  I   included the following quote in my DG tutor book:

"the well known concert pianist Arture Schnabel once said, 'The notes I handle no better than many pianists, but the pauses between the notes -Ah, that is where the art resides' "

anyone want to disagree!

george
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Re: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2018, 11:52:01 PM »

Furthur to Anahata's comments   about the silences between notes.  I   included the following quote in my DG tutor book:

"the well known concert pianist Arture Schnabel once said, 'The notes I handle no better than many pianists, but the pauses between the notes -Ah, that is where the art resides' "

anyone want to disagree!

george

Not me  (:)
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Re: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2018, 12:54:51 AM »

This thread caused me to listen to John Kirkpatrick for the first time. Am I right in thinking most people on mel.net want to play like that?

John's playing was a source of inspiration for me when I first started learning and still is, over 35 years later. His approach to English music is masterful and he has done much to lift the English tradition out of the obscurity into which it had been relegated for so many years.
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Guy

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Re: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2018, 01:26:44 AM »

This thread caused me to listen to John Kirkpatrick for the first time. Am I right in thinking most people on mel.net want to play like that?

Yes, but I also want to play like SpiersBrottoCuttingJunkeraParkinsonShandTesiShannonPiazzolaDalyCunninghamJimenezPetersSavoyMilleretDhooreLambert.... amongst many others.

Oh dear. So much to learn.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2018, 07:44:28 AM »

I think of John's input to traditional English music ( and dance ) over the years as monumental.
It reminds me when learning English Concertina, I could usually learn by ear from the people I was listening to. The most difficult tunes I could generally fathom out. Then I heard music from John. Listening to even simple tunes, I struggled to work them out. That's when I realised, as Theo says, he's playing chords on right hand and there is a lot going on within the tune.
There are a lot of great players now, but John was there at the beginning of the English folk revival and continues to set the standard for me.
Now the revival has matured, it has made way for some brilliant musicians to emerge, and there's a young crop coming through to.
It means there are some great styles to listen to, different ways to play a given tune, all in all I feel we're in a good place.
I still love listening to John though  ;)
Q
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2018, 07:49:54 AM »

Don’t let’s forget the late great and mighty Bob Cann, a master of English dance.
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george garside

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Re: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2018, 09:56:35 AM »

Bob Cann was also influenced by Jimmy Shand  and played many of his tunes!

george
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george garside

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Re: Getting that "punchy" rhythm (and bellows safety)
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2018, 10:03:01 AM »

This thread caused me to listen to John Kirkpatrick for the first time. Am I right in thinking most people on mel.net want to play like that?

Yes, but I also want to play like SpiersBrottoCuttingJunkeraParkinsonShandTesiShannonPiazzolaDalyCunninghamJimenezPetersSavoyMilleretDhooreLambert.... amongst many others.

Oh dear. So much to learn.

Better to play like yourself rather than to try to play like any of the 'masters'  .  Develop your own style  which can of course be influenced by that of others .

I play like me  and have no idea what has gone into the melting pot over the years

george

george
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