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Author Topic: Mental imagery  (Read 8202 times)

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Jesse Smith

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Mental imagery
« on: January 26, 2018, 05:18:00 PM »

Do others visualize the push and pull almost as separate rows? When playing phrases on the G row like the start of The Keel Row, I "see" triangles in my mind. It's actually a fairly strong mental impression that the push and pull keyboards are separate "spaces".

Just wondering if anyone else perceives these things like this. Perhaps we even have some synaesthetes among us who relate the rows to different colors?

I wonder if this kind of thing could be helpful for teaching or if it is so individual and hard to describe that it's not very useful to others. Just some musings after a productive three hour practice last night and my head is still floating around in melodeonland this morning.
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Anne Croucher

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Re: Mental imagery
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2018, 01:04:39 AM »

I don't see anything at all - no visualization of any kind - having now begun to play a single row in C as well as a two row D/G and finding that it is quite easy I am really bemused to find that I have a bit of a talent for these things.
I doubt that I will burst out into Dance of the Demon Daffodils at any moment, but Princess Royal or Liberty Bell - no problem.
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mselic

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Re: Mental imagery
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2018, 03:32:49 AM »

Yes - I have the exact same experience of seeing the PULL notes as "up" and "above" the PUSH notes, like as if they were a separate row. This is not a conscious visualization, but just what I happen to see in my mind's eye.
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george garside

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Re: Mental imagery
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2018, 10:23:34 AM »

I'm with Anne on this.  I neither visualise or for that matter look at the keyboard as my fingers and left arm must  be directed to the right button and bellwos direction by 'autopilot'.  i.e without conscious thought.  I am convinced that scale practice including on the row or on a single row  box  programmes autopilot to do the tight thing if you want a note,say, 5 higher,2 lower, same button arse upards or whatever

george
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Mental imagery
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2018, 02:07:14 PM »

I don't visualise what's going on with my fingers, but I am extremely conscious of my left had and possibly do visualise that..... but I am left handed.

I suspect I might have when first playing, which is where Jesse is at the moment. I've not been playing that long, but now I am sufficiently at home that my hands go where they need to go without thought or looking at where they are.
Maybe mental imagery is the starting point to get you going, and it fades as your automatic memory takes over?
Interesting thoughts....
Q
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I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Mental imagery
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2018, 02:46:06 PM »

I don't visualise what's going on with my fingers, but I am extremely conscious of my left had and possibly do visualise that..... but I am left handed.

I suspect I might have when first playing, which is where Jesse is at the moment. I've not been playing that long, but now I am sufficiently at home that my hands go where they need to go without thought or looking at where they are.
Maybe mental imagery is the starting point to get you going, and it fades as your automatic memory takes over?
Interesting thoughts....
Q

Sounds a lot like  my experience, plus, I'm a lot more conscious of my left hand now I'm playing a 12 bass instrument with F#m/F and G and A reversals. It seemed enormous at first. The more I use it the less I have to search for the buttons and the less conscious thought goes into working out what might work.
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Greg Smith
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Mental imagery
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2018, 03:37:04 PM »

I think the more you play the more ingrained the relationship between mind and sound becomes and the mechanics of what to press to make that sound become lost.
It shows up if learning by ear, the more you do the more your fingers hit pretty much the note without the thought behind it. My friend always says a week of Sidmouth folk festival sessions quickens her ability to pick up a tune as a weeks' worth of intense playing solidifies the bond between mind and instrument.
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

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Martin P

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Re: Mental imagery
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2018, 11:47:17 PM »

When playing from memory I often have a mental image of the original score.
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Re: Mental imagery
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2018, 01:09:08 AM »

I think the more you play the more ingrained the relationship between mind and sound becomes and the mechanics of what to press to make that sound become lost.
It shows up if learning by ear, the more you do the more your fingers hit pretty much the note without the thought behind it. My friend always says a week of Sidmouth folk festival sessions quickens her ability to pick up a tune as a weeks' worth of intense playing solidifies the bond between mind and instrument.
Q
Spot on! Totally agree with that, Q!
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: Mental imagery
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2018, 05:37:21 AM »

In the 60’s I came via the mouth organ, playing at school. When discovering the melodeon in the 70’s with Bourne River Morris I found I was breathing the suck and blow and transferring it to push and pull.
  However that didn’t last very long, and now after many years I just know which button will make which sound. I can still play the mouthie by the way
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Jesse Smith

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Re: Mental imagery
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2018, 06:48:14 AM »

I've heard a lot of people say they get their breathing tangled up with the motion of the bellows. Thankfully that hasn't happened to me! Seems like it would really interfere with singing while playing (though I haven't tried that very much yet).
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george garside

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Re: Mental imagery
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2018, 08:18:22 AM »

the dreaded grunt!

george
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Mental imagery
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2018, 08:47:00 AM »

I've heard a lot of people say they get their breathing tangled up with the motion of the bellows. Thankfully that hasn't happened to me! Seems like it would really interfere with singing while playing (though I haven't tried that very much yet).

The breathing in time with the bellows is a nuisance and can be difficult to get rid of. It sneaks up on you. The first time I noticed it I was playing a slow tune across the rows. As my bellows ran out towards full extension, on a sequence, I realised my lungs were full of air! The  only way I could breath out was to disengage my mind from my playing and i came to a full stop.

I've more, or less,got over it, except for the occasional bout.

Never happens when I play dance tunes up and down the row, only on airs
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Greg Smith
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ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

george garside

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Re: Mental imagery
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2018, 11:20:14 AM »

I got out of the habit by sucking a polo mint or something similar while playing .It worked very well ? because while so sucking you have to breath through the nose   rather than the mouth??  Those who accompany themselves singing  will probably  not breath with the bellows  as so doing and singing won't go together!

george
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Mental imagery
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2018, 11:36:23 AM »

I'm not sure if it's a related problem, but I can't carry on any sort of conversation while I'm playing. The best I can manage is to mutter the name of a tune to change to when I'm leading a set. I don't remember this happening when I played stringed instruments.
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Greg Smith
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Theo

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Re: Mental imagery
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2018, 11:38:35 AM »

That is very common Greg.  I've been playing 20+ years and I can still only grunt if someone speaks to me while I'm playing.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Mental imagery
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2018, 11:49:16 AM »

Greg, yes me too.
I can just about gesticulate a 'yes please' if someone's getting the beer in!
Imagine my absolute amazement when listening to the Kirkophony Band - a certain JK and all his sons - playing a ceilidh at Sidmouth this year.
The tunes coming out were crackers, a lot of his own complicated ones, plus some of the tricky ones in the previously mentioned JK English Choice tune book.
These were played with him leading on often his BCC# monster..... and calling over the top of playing. No hint of  breathy staccato talking ( like me ), no drop in tune rhythm or any notes just naturally telling the dancers what to do next as all good callers do. Incredible.
I was talking to one of his sons the next day, who also plays melodeon and said it was an amazing feat, and he agreed and also has no idea either as to how he can do it!
It all goes to add to the legend that is JK.
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Mental imagery
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2018, 12:08:33 PM »

Our guitar player thinks a great joke to try and get me involved in conversations when practicing dances. I wondered if talking and playing is something you can learn to do. Not quite sure how, though. It would have to be when I was practicing alone, so there would be no one for me to talk to  ;D

Sally, who played with us for a few years (also of Dartington Morris) could discuss any subject under the sun, while playing brilliantly.
Infuriating.
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Greg Smith
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Mental imagery
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2018, 03:20:03 PM »

I am a "separate" type. I can name all the buttons as notes on pull and perceive little tracks zigzagging across my 3 rows, roads for  various maj/minor scales and their Greek modes. Similarly Em "modal/ Neopolitan" zags up onto G row whereas dorian hooks up the D rows, then back to the outer row pull D on my kit. It's all paths and trianges in my head. E blues is a cross!

Flat keys are even stranger,  with  "magic button" Ab/Bb on my outer row and then a sort of knight's move from there. F doesn't need Ab, but still acts a bit like a chess piece in my head.

Chords are there too, triangles, 4 finger curves and L shapes. A lot of jazzier stuff - Gmaj7 and Amin7 …  a "block". I put a finger across 4 buttons, don't care too much if I only hit 3, it still works "use the Force, Chris"!

On push … not so good. However this leads to a very different way of playing. I'll attach the pull F# blues scale for DG to show what I mean. It is there on every 2 row (pitched a semitone below the inner row key)

I perceive it a a series of 4 "laid back" L shapes, crossing the rows
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Eshed

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Re: Mental imagery
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2018, 06:11:02 PM »

I actually don't have a clue what notes I play unless I deliberately think about it (this might explain why I only play by ear).
I know the notes in the keyboard, it's just that I don't think about them at all unless I have to (e.g., when I figured out RH chords).

My finger goes more or less to the right place. With the guitar I used to describe it as motoric hearing, if the guitar is not on me I have hard time recalling what chords are used in a song, but give me a guitar and the chords will just flow to my fingers without passing through my brain.
One other thing that I've noticed, while I remember music as patterns on the buttons, I don't couple it with the fingers, so sometimes I push the right buttons but find myself stuck because I used a less convenient fingering (even though I've only practiced one fingering before that).
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