Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: Which key?  (Read 1974 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Winston Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1599
  • AKA Edward Jennings
    • "Our Luxor B&B" Luxor life, slice by slice.
Re: Which key?
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2018, 03:32:39 PM »

"On a 114 in G they would be C notes."
Of course they would, thanks. I should have remembered that from my 4 spoon bass G 1 row that I conjured up a while ago.
 
As for losing more than I might gain; I'll only lose chords, which I don't like anyway, the 4 stop chords always seem to sound too harsh for my liking!

I've looked at, and lusted over, several G 1040's over the past few weeks, but I don't have the "cash to splash", and what little I've had has been "wasted"(?) on strange boxes which have been very cheap (and nasty, on the whole) but which I just had to have! Anyway, although I really love the sound and playability of my 1040, I'm growing to prefer three or more (stopped) voices as the variation is, well, more variable!

I've never been a lover of having chords where proper bass notes could be! This is a direct result of pretending to sing bass in a choir for the past 50 years.

As I'm expecting to not have to do any modifications to the actual structure of the bass end of my 114, I'll be grafting on new reed mountings with wax, and possibly a small screw or two, it shouldn't take much to put it back to original.

Dear Anahata, I initially missed your excellent helpful post. I think the D will suit very nicely, thanks.

I think that's about sorted, then; except for retuning those pull D's up to E's on the treble side. Then I'll be knocking doors out of windows, what?

Logged
Although I can carry on messing with melodeons, the ongoing attention of the Ministry of Truth and the Thought Police will (no doubt) eventually teach me to really love Big Brother!

Steve_freereeder

  • Grumpy old git (sometimes)
  • Content Manager
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5579
  • MAD is inevitable. Keep Calm and Carry On
    • Lizzie Dripping
Re: Which key?
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2018, 05:37:54 PM »

...
I think the D will suit very nicely, thanks.
I think that's about sorted, then; except for retuning those pull D's up to E's on the treble side...

The trouble is that this starts to go against your earlier pledge:
...This wouldn't involve anything permanent, let me assure certain members who might get their nicks in a twist at the suggestion, lol!

The sort of changes you are proposing are permanent. By tuning up the D reeds to E, that is a whole tone of sharpening which will require a significant amount of filing away of steel from the tips of the reed tongues. You can't put the steel back again. If anyone subsequently wanted to restore the reeds to their original pitch, they would need to be flattened again by removing yet more steel, this time from the belly of the reed tongues, or else by adding weights to the tips. Undoing the tuning by either of those methods is likely to compromise the reed response and/or sound quality and pitch stability of the reeds.  :(

Maybe it's just my personal view but I think it would be a shame to risk spoiling perfectly good Hohner reeds. You would be better advised to buy (i.e. spending a few pounds :o ) replacement individual reed plates in the pitch that you want from Charlie Marshall and fit them instead. Cagnoni 'machinna' quality reeds work very nicely and are almost identical in sound to Hohner reeds. You can then keep the Hohner reeds safely in their original state ready for you or a subsequent owner to put back when needed.
Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10609
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Which key?
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2018, 06:25:17 PM »

Steve,  I’m all for conserving what we have of instruments from the past,  but there must be millions of Hohner reeds around in old unloved.  I don’t think we have to conserve every one.  If I’m wrong  then I am guilty of having done unforgivable damage to a few thousand Hohner reeds when converting old CF boxes to DG.  And I’m not the only one.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Steve_freereeder

  • Grumpy old git (sometimes)
  • Content Manager
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5579
  • MAD is inevitable. Keep Calm and Carry On
    • Lizzie Dripping
Re: Which key?
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2018, 06:55:26 PM »

Well, I guess I'm in the wrong again, then.
However, I don't think converting a C/F box to D/G tuning is 'unforgivable damage' as it is giving a new lease of life to an instrument which might well otherwise remain unplayed, and since there are plenty of C/F boxes around, it is very unlikely that someone would want to retune the D/G conversion back to C/F. Hence the permanence of the retuning is justified.

My main concern is the concept that a reed can be altered first by sharpening a whole tone and then at some point in the future have that tuning reversed back to the original without involving some lasting, permanent, degradation to the reed. That's different from converting a C/F box to D/G as a 'once only' change.
Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk

Winston Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1599
  • AKA Edward Jennings
    • "Our Luxor B&B" Luxor life, slice by slice.
Re: Which key?
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2018, 07:40:20 PM »

Steve, on one of my Firewood boxes, when I couldn't file enough metal off a reed tip without it disintegrating altogether, I added a small blob of solder near the fixed end of the reed, it seemed to work a treat! If removing weight from the reed tip raises the note, and adding weight lowers the note; then I can see no reason why the same principle shouldn't work in reverse, at the other end?
That's also my intention with the 114 lower pull D reeds. Now, I'm quite certain that it will effect the reed's response or the quality of the sound, or something, but I'm not a perfectionist, I just want certain notes where I need them for the music I'm trying to play! And, the solder can be removed without too much mess-on, returning things back to "normal".
You see; I did take notice of your (Anahata too IIRC) concern about me wasting perfectly good Hohner reeds a year or two ago! Thanks for trying to keep me right.

After giving more thought to having a push D on the bass, I already have one which I could utilise on the treble end, like the pull D on the bass standing in for the removed one on the treble, so maybe the bass A is the way to go after all?
Logged
Although I can carry on messing with melodeons, the ongoing attention of the Ministry of Truth and the Thought Police will (no doubt) eventually teach me to really love Big Brother!

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4638
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: Which key?
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2018, 10:59:38 PM »

when I couldn't file enough metal off a reed tip without it disintegrating altogether, I added a small blob of solder near the fixed end of the reed, it seemed to work a treat! If removing weight from the reed tip raises the note, and adding weight lowers the note; then I can see no reason why the same principle shouldn't work in reverse, at the other end?

At the other end of the reed you are not removing or adding weight but stiffness, and I really wouldn't expect solder to do that because it's too soft: it will just kill the springiness of the reed.
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh band: www.fendragon.co.uk

Steve_freereeder

  • Grumpy old git (sometimes)
  • Content Manager
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5579
  • MAD is inevitable. Keep Calm and Carry On
    • Lizzie Dripping
Re: Which key?
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2018, 12:04:31 AM »

Steve, on one of my Firewood boxes, when I couldn't file enough metal off a reed tip without it disintegrating altogether, I added a small blob of solder near the fixed end of the reed, it seemed to work a treat! If removing weight from the reed tip raises the note, and adding weight lowers the note; then I can see no reason why the same principle shouldn't work in reverse, at the other end?...

OK - if it works, that would seem to be a non-destructive and reversible method of continuing your experimentations. But I also note Anahata's concerns about killing the springiness of the reed.
Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk

Winston Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1599
  • AKA Edward Jennings
    • "Our Luxor B&B" Luxor life, slice by slice.
Re: Which key?
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2018, 04:19:15 AM »

Thanks to both for your further input, your concerns are duly noted.

Whilst I see the argument against my theory about adding weight towards the base of the reed, I would imagine that there's actually more going on than meets the eye, anyway! Adding weight there with solder, or anything else, will certainly have an effect on the "springiness", but surely that effect would be of slightly shifting the anchored point and thereby shortening the reed; and that is what is raising the pitch? I don't believe that soldering requires enough heat to actually affect the inherent spring of the steel to any practical measure, although I'm confident that that isn't what Anahata means anyway. 

As I said, it worked on the long-plate reeds, so I fully expect that it will work on these too. We'll see! (But not until I get back home towards the end of March!) I will report back, promise!
Logged
Although I can carry on messing with melodeons, the ongoing attention of the Ministry of Truth and the Thought Police will (no doubt) eventually teach me to really love Big Brother!

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10609
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Which key?
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2018, 08:23:20 AM »

I have seen reeds with solder added in the bending zone in order to raise the pitch.  It does have the desired effect,  but it also has the effect of deadening the sound. Not something I would recommend.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4638
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: Which key?
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2018, 08:45:17 AM »

I don't believe that soldering requires enough heat to actually affect the inherent spring of the steel to any practical measure, although I'm confident that that isn't what Anahata means anyway. 

Correct. What I meant was: reeds are made of hard steel and solder is soft. Try 'pinging' a length of solder wire held against the edge of a table top if you really want to test the difference. Though using it on the bending end of the reed will either effectively shorten the reed or increase the stiffness to raise the pitch, it will also absorb energy from the vibrating reed, and you don't want that.

I haven't tried using solder that way, but Theo's description of deadening the sound is exactly what I'd expect, if you use little enough solder not to kill it altogether.
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh band: www.fendragon.co.uk

Winston Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1599
  • AKA Edward Jennings
    • "Our Luxor B&B" Luxor life, slice by slice.
Re: Which key?
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2018, 08:52:23 AM »

"Not something I would recommend."

I'm quite pleased to read that, Theo. I'd hate to actually pay a professional to experiment on my little prizes. You never know, after I've made a complete balls-up of this you might end up being asked to put it right!!!!!!!!

Anahata, I understand that the reed is not going to perform at its best, but it will probably do for my purposes.

As I keep saying, We'll see!!!!!!
Logged
Although I can carry on messing with melodeons, the ongoing attention of the Ministry of Truth and the Thought Police will (no doubt) eventually teach me to really love Big Brother!

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4638
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: Which key?
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2018, 12:13:33 PM »

The thing is, if you don't mind a compromise in performance, instead of ruining a nice old Hohner reed you could (maybe) find a more 'disposable' reed of the correct pitch from a breaking-for-parts box.
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh band: www.fendragon.co.uk

Winston Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1599
  • AKA Edward Jennings
    • "Our Luxor B&B" Luxor life, slice by slice.
Re: Which key?
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2018, 01:04:34 PM »

Actually, I have a scrap PA to collect when I get back, so that is a possibility. Then again, although most of the reeds which I have in stock are Hohner T's, there may be one to suit among the others. But I don't honestly think that adding a bit of solder will cause the reed much pain, anyway.
I do appreciate your thoughts. All who've answered offering advice or constructive criticism, thanks again.
Logged
Although I can carry on messing with melodeons, the ongoing attention of the Ministry of Truth and the Thought Police will (no doubt) eventually teach me to really love Big Brother!

Gena Crisman

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 195
Re: Which key?
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2018, 05:20:01 PM »

Hmm, well, if you happen to have some '2nd' button reeds from an F row, you'd have a C/E reed from that, might be plausible to tune the C down to a B to get the B/E reed that I think you're talking about? Then you'd be adding solder to the end to tune down, rather than to the base to tune up (or filing weight from the tip, whatever it is you like to do). To be honest though, I think because it's one of those reeds with a pretty big variance in pitch, it might be hard to find good donors from a PA, I'm not sure if if it's going into a box with more than just M reeds because, honestly, I haven't followed the whole thread.
Logged

Winston Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1599
  • AKA Edward Jennings
    • "Our Luxor B&B" Luxor life, slice by slice.
Re: Which key?
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2018, 07:55:11 PM »

It's a 4 stop; LMM+H, so 4 reeds to sort. Thanks for the interest, Gena.
Logged
Although I can carry on messing with melodeons, the ongoing attention of the Ministry of Truth and the Thought Police will (no doubt) eventually teach me to really love Big Brother!
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.