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Author Topic: 3rd or 4th button start for a CF  (Read 2033 times)

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Tone Dumb Greg

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3rd or 4th button start for a CF
« on: May 05, 2018, 12:47:10 PM »

The melodeon world's loss to the world of jazz has been my gain, thanks to Williams rather lovely "horribly underpriced" vintage CF Hohner.
The two DGs I have are 4th button start, with low notes. I am considering making this layout similar to my pokerwork (but a tone down (:)). 
I am interested in what people think of the pros and cons of this.
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Greg Smith
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Lester

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Re: 3rd or 4th button start for a CF
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2018, 03:04:44 PM »

There is less need for 4th button start on a C/F as, as you say, it is lower pitched. But I have converted mine so I have the same hand position on all my boxes and I like having the low A available for playing in Dmin.

AirTime

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Re: 3rd or 4th button start for a CF
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2018, 04:12:09 PM »

I have a 4th button start CF, I recommend it.
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Theo

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Re: 3rd or 4th button start for a CF
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2018, 04:52:40 PM »

I have a 3rd button start CF and I don’t miss the extra low notes that I’d have with 4th.  It depends what you will use your CF for.
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Rob2Hook

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Re: 3rd or 4th button start for a CF
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2018, 06:01:21 PM »

I have low notes and 7 accidentals on my C/F - it's a Club IIB Viktoria.  Although the tone is more mellow and the pitch lower than a modern D/G, there are a number of tunes which use those extra low notes instead of fluffing around them.  Mind you, to get the same advantage you'd have to do without accidentals which also tend to occur in the same tunes!  It's not like a G/C where you play mostly in the upper octave, so I'd favour the 4th button start.  Choice of accidentals or not is yours.

If you ever get a chance of a good cheap Viktoria, I'd really recomend you try it.  Just as a Pokerwork is the lightest 2 voice 21+8, the old clubs are much lighter than any current 2.5 row and you get 7 accidentals.

Rob.
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playandteach

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Re: 3rd or 4th button start for a CF
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2018, 08:21:48 PM »

Any chance of hearing your Viktoria?
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Chris Ryall

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Re: 3rd or 4th button start for a CF
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2018, 11:21:15 PM »

I'd say 4th button start, as it is close enough to D/G that the same arguments about voicing apply.  But I've not owned, and scarecely played one in 18 years.

The better the reed quality, the more I think you'll enjoy it. Low Bb is one gorgeous note?
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: 3rd or 4th button start for a CF
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2018, 12:14:45 AM »

Thanks for the comments. This box has a seriously nice tone to it. Love at first sight (ok, play). I was just worried someone might say the retune was sacrilegious. I like the relationship I have beteen noted on my 21 button DG. I think I will go for the retune. It needs a check over, anyway.
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Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

Steve_freereeder

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Re: 3rd or 4th button start for a CF
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2018, 07:30:04 AM »

I have a 1930s C/F Erika 2.4 row - one of Mike Rowbotham's restorations, and very nice it is too.
It is 3rd button start but has low notes on the main rows, with the usual chin-end accidentals on the half-row. I find that I use the low notes quite a lot and would miss them if they were not there.

If the instrument were just a two-row, I would probably want it to be 4th button start, plus chin-end accidentals.

In general for both D/G and C/F boxes where accidentals are at the chin end, my personal choice of whether to have them as 3rd or 4th button start depends to some extent on whether they are two voice MM or three voice LMM. I play quite a lot in the upper ('dusty') octave on my D/G boxes in LMM setting - i.e. tunes that most people would play at the chin end, I play 'upstairs' in the dusty end. The presence of the L voice tones down the squeakiness of the upper octave and in addition gives the sound a nice cutting edge. Therefore on a two row LMM box in either D/G or C/F, I would be prepared to sacrifice the loss of the floor-end highest notes in a 4th button start in order to still retain chin-end accidentals plus low notes.

However, in a two-row, two-voice MM D/G or C/F box, the upper octave sounds so squeaky that I tend not to play in the dusty upper octave quite so much, so a 4th button start with chin end accidentals and low notes almost becomes a necessity rather than a luxury.

Hope this makes sense...

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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: 3rd or 4th button start for a CF
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2018, 09:43:14 AM »

I bow to superior knowledge on 3/4 button starts but...
I acquired a BbEb a little while back and had the keyboard changed to be the equivalent of my 4th button start and accidentals DG's
Therefore all my boxes are identical in their fingering when I switch from one to the other.
Perhaps to the more experienced it doesn't matter, but to me I wanted to prevent brain ache and confusion!
Just a thought.....
Q
A bear of little brain...
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Rob2Hook

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Re: 3rd or 4th button start for a CF
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2018, 09:50:56 AM »

Any chance of hearing your Viktoria?

Hmmm

First I must find my Zoom, then the manual for it, then get my Luddite brain around how to use it...  It might happen sometime soon.

Rob.
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Ellison

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Re: 3rd or 4th button start for a CF
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2018, 10:55:26 AM »

I bow to superior knowledge on 3/4 button starts but...
I acquired a BbEb a little while back and had the keyboard changed to be the equivalent of my 4th button start and accidentals DG's
Therefore all my boxes are identical in their fingering when I switch from one to the other.

I'm with Thrupenny on this. Those low notes (on a CF, I don't have a BbEb  :-[ ) are gorgeous.

Martin
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David J

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Re: 3rd or 4th button start for a CF
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2018, 01:42:00 PM »

I bow to superior knowledge on 3/4 button starts but...
I acquired a BbEb a little while back and had the keyboard changed to be the equivalent of my 4th button start and accidentals DG's
Therefore all my boxes are identical in their fingering when I switch from one to the other.

I'm with Thrupenny on this. Those low notes (on a CF, I don't have a BbEb  :-[ ) are gorgeous.

Martin
Me too. I have this set up on a Bb/Eb as well as my D/G boxes, and love the sound of that bottom G octave. [corr] Eb !
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robotmay

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Re: 3rd or 4th button start for a CF
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2018, 01:52:50 PM »

I've got a Bb/Eb Erika being tuned up at the moment, and I've had that done as a 4th button start. My reason for it was that the half row is really oddly positioned otherwise (for my layout at least), and I prefer having the buttons in a more reachable position. All my boxes have different layouts, and I usually learn tunes in both octaves because of that. Took me quite a while to relearn the Stoney Steps Hornpipe in the lower octave (it's quite a bit easier in the upper octave)! :o

I do think the perfect box would have 23 buttons on the main two rows. That way you could get both the low and high notes in. I think the Saltarelle 2.4 row boxes are set up like that, maybe some Serenellinis?
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