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Author Topic: Regarding the difference between systems?  (Read 2913 times)

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mselic

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Re: Regarding the difference between systems?
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2018, 01:55:32 PM »

Quote
But it won't necessarily 'sound fine'. Compared with a D/G, a G/C definitely has a different feel to the whole melodic and harmonic 'centre' (for want of a better word) of the instrument. So - it's hardly irrelevant to point this out. Quite the opposite.

I have to agree with Stiamh here; in regards to the point he was trying to make, it is irrelevant. I believe you are arguing a different point altogether, which does have merit, but which only muddies the waters in the context of what was being discussed. :)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 01:57:56 PM by mselic »
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RickC.

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Re: Regarding the difference between systems?
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2018, 03:04:25 PM »

"the possibilities for crossing over on both C#/D and B/C are much more limited than on 4th tuned boxes."

This was an encouraging line to read, as it implies (well, to me!) that the half-step systems are  played mainly on the row, and therefore more suited to those of us who've started off with a good old 1 row. Is that a fair assessment, do you think?

In the case of B/C, no, not a fair assessment at all. In think it was Brendan Mulkere (London-based teacher of Irish music) who said that moving from a one-row D to a B/C required a "brain transplant". You will use a lot of row-crossing - it's just that mostly, unlike on a G/C, you won't have a choice about it. What there are far fewer of on a halfstep box are reversals - only two in fact.

You could look at a C#/D more in the way you describe, but I feel it would be a very reductionist view of the system's possibilities. You could happily play all the D and Em tunes you like on the D row and only use the C# row when you have to. Probably a lot of people do just that. But if that's what you want to do, why not stick with your one-row?

  Consider that:

1.  On B/C and C#/D there are only two notes that appear on both rows.
2.  On G/C there is only one note that does not appear on both rows.

   And regarding #2, sometimes that is in the same bellows direction, sometimes the opposite, and sometimes in the same direction on buttons adjacent to each other on the two rows.  So it's a totally different world. 

As for why not stick to a one row?  For Irish music, for me that reason can be summed up in one word:  Rolls. 
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Regarding the difference between systems?
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2018, 03:37:34 PM »

I have to agree with Stiamh here; in regards to the point he was trying to make, it is irrelevant. I believe you are arguing a different point altogether, which does have merit, but which only muddies the waters in the context of what was being discussed. :)

Well - I was only responding to Stiamh as it was he who brought the D/G & G/C comparison into this thread in the first place. Anyway - happy to leave things here as they stand. If anyone wants to discuss the D/G & G/C comparison further on a separate thread, that's probably the best way to go. Mind you, I'm pretty sure it's been discussed on this forum more than once in the past.  ;)

Play nicely, everyone...
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Dick Rees

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Re: Regarding the difference between systems?
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2018, 03:39:42 PM »

Quote
2.  On G/C there is only one note that does not appear on both rows.

   And regarding #2, sometimes that is in the same bellows direction, sometimes the opposite, and sometimes in the same direction on buttons adjacent to each other on the two rows.  So it's a totally different world.

...but always on the same buttons in the same place and relationship.  It's not a random "sometimes" thing, it's a system.

I suspect that a major difficulty in the change from one box system to another is that the whole concept of playing chord/rhythm in one hand and melody in the other puts it into the realm not merely of a different system, but a different way of hearing, quantifying and learning the music.  They really are different instruments and facility on one does not necessarily translate into the same degree of facility on another.

I spent many years being the "left hand" of ceilidh bands chording on piano, so using chords on a G/C box hasn't been a problem.  The sytem is the system on any instrument and, as the Vogon guard said to Ford Prefect and Arthur Dent as he carried them to the airlock, "Resistance is useless".  I've thought many times about making one alteration or another to the standard Erica "half-tones low" layout, but there has always been a way to get what I need through a deeper understanding of music.

 The beauty of the diatonic system and its "limitations" is that you become aware of how to voice and phrase the music to get the listener to hear their own "ideal" note at a critical point from the your suggestion impled in the flow of the music.  This musical "sleight of hand" has opened up Music to an unimaganeable degree not only on the box, but also on 50 years of guitar arrangements.

I now play "diatonic" guitar.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 08:42:55 PM by Dick Rees »
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RickC.

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Re: Regarding the difference between systems?
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2018, 03:43:01 PM »

They really are different instruments and facility on one does not necessarily translate into the same degree of facility on another.



As we'd say in Alabama, "Son, you ain' never lied!"
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Stockaryd

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Re: Regarding the difference between systems?
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2018, 03:46:46 PM »

It seems to me that knowing music must create a tremendous handicap in some circumstances, but I'm sure that I should be wrong there!

You are wrong. Music makes YOU smarter.    (:)   

This is the reason why a person who plays music is smarter, than the same person who does not play music. The brain works more when it is on music, and you get smarter.
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Dick Rees

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Re: Regarding the difference between systems?
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2018, 03:48:02 PM »

It seems to me that knowing music must create a tremendous handicap in some circumstances, but I'm sure that I should be wrong there!

You are wrong. Music makes YOU smarter.    (:)   

This is the reason why a person who plays music is smarter, than the same person who does not play music. The brain works more when it is on music, and you get smarter.

x1000!
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Regarding the difference between systems?
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2018, 04:11:34 PM »

2.  On G/C there is only one note that does not appear on both rows.

Hmm...
On a standard G/C box, (and ignoring the chin-end accidentals) there is F-natural which is only on the C-row and F# which is only on the G-row. So that makes two notes which do not appear on both rows.
See the layout here:
http://forum.melodeon.net/files/site/keyboards/2%20Row%20-%20G_C%20-%20with%20accidentals.jpg
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Stiamh

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Re: Regarding the difference between systems?
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2018, 04:13:43 PM »

Well - I was only responding to Stiamh as it was he who brought the D/G & G/C comparison into this thread in the first place. Anyway - happy to leave things here as they stand.

If you think you are going to have the last word on this subject, well, we won't let you.  ;)
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RickC.

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Re: Regarding the difference between systems?
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2018, 05:22:16 PM »

2.  On G/C there is only one note that does not appear on both rows.

Hmm...
On a standard G/C box, (and ignoring the chin-end accidentals) there is F-natural which is only on the C-row and F# which is only on the G-row. So that makes two notes which do not appear on both rows.
See the layout here:
http://forum.melodeon.net/files/site/keyboards/2%20Row%20-%20G_C%20-%20with%20accidentals.jpg

You're right- my bad!
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Dick Rees

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Re: Regarding the difference between systems?
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2018, 05:57:39 PM »

2.  On G/C there is only one note that does not appear on both rows.

Hmm...
On a standard G/C box, (and ignoring the chin-end accidentals) there is F-natural which is only on the C-row and F# which is only on the G-row. So that makes two notes which do not appear on both rows.
See the layout here:
http://forum.melodeon.net/files/site/keyboards/2%20Row%20-%20G_C%20-%20with%20accidentals.jpg

You're right- my bad!

Also the low A on the G row pull and the low D on the G row have no duplicates.  Oh...and the highest D on the G row as well as the high C and E on the C row.  I use them all.
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RickC.

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Re: Regarding the difference between systems?
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2018, 07:14:07 PM »

Yeah, I think what I was thinking was from the root notes upward- sorry that was not an accurate description.  Anyway, it's a different world, and I think most people's questions would be best answered if they try to play each system. 

I played a couple of tunes on G/C to a local C#/D player (who is pretty good) and explained to him what was going on, and he just shook his head and said, "Why would you even want to do that?" 
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Dick Rees

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Re: Regarding the difference between systems?
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2018, 08:39:32 PM »

I played a couple of tunes on G/C to a local C#/D player (who is pretty good) and explained to him what was going on, and he just shook his head and said, "Why would you even want to do that?"

Because you have all the chords you need???
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KLR

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Re: Regarding the difference between systems?
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2018, 09:07:21 PM »

Semitone boxes just work best for Irish/Scottish music, you have the low C and G notes, and G#, these are important for fiddle tunes that go down low or that are in A; for Irish music the roll ornament is always right at hand, with the same fingering, and the odd chromatic note is easily obtained, too.  You can do some of this on a quint box and achieve some nice sounds, and have the potential for having the bellows go in the right direction when needed to supply the correct basses; but the fingering for rolls can be screwy at times, although you have the plus of not having to have a lower grace note a semitone below the note being ornamented.

But these other features require that for quint instruments you have a 4th start box and a way to supply that G# in both octaves, meaning an additional row, or retuning, or maybe an ADG.  None of these things were around in shops a century ago when players were first taking an interest in this stuff, even A/D was a rarity, and D/G basically didn't exist, so it's no surprise semitone boxes won out for Celtic music, they simply supply what the players need.
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