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Author Topic: Advice please if you would  (Read 1976 times)

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george garside

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2018, 08:56:51 AM »

try youtube Alistair Anderson northumbrian clog dancers  for a  demonstration of playing English concertina with bounce

george
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2018, 09:00:02 AM »

Exactly that!  The bisonoric instruments naturally affect the playing as the bellows reversals introduce a slightly stilted rhythm which, if unchecked, yields an audible syncopation.  That and the fresh attack each time you reverse does as others describe, akin to a dancer hopping from foot to foot.  The challenge with these instruments (melodeon and anglo) is to smooth everything out and most development of technique is to this end.

Unisonoric instruments such as the English and Piano Accordion have great potential or playing very smoothly and initially this is the technique one develops.  They then need the player to add any syncopation and emphasis, otherwise the nusic is as soulless as a midi player on your computer.

With equal levels of skill applied to each instrument, the melodeon/anglo will suit "lumpy" dances while the English/PA will better suit French Cafe music.

Rob.
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george garside

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2018, 09:11:07 AM »

its all down to developing a high level of bellows control skill on either bisonoric or unisonoric  (eg English and Anglo or melodeon and piano box)   Once those skills have been honed  either system can be played smoothly (including one row or 'on the row' 'melodeons) and either system can be played with 'bounce'

All too often the bellows are treated as a bloody great air pump when in reality they are to the box player what the bow is to a fiddler

george >:E ;)
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playandteach

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2018, 10:04:39 AM »

And I've managed to make my melodeon playing far too smooth - partly through reversals of reeds partly through choice of style and partly through lack of technique. Still time to improve though.
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Edward Jennings

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2018, 10:22:47 AM »

Has your condition eased then, Pete?  I do hope you are back to regular playing.
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Edward
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Hohner 114 in G. Hohner 1040 in C. International One Row 2 voice in D.  17 button 8 bass, bandoneon tuned, Squirrel with stops for both treble voices in C/F. Hohner (Pre-Corona?) in G/C/F, Hohner Corso in C/C#, Hohner Club 11 currently being converted from C/F to bandoneon tuned D/G, Ancient M. Hohner 2 voice 1 row in C. Plus projects and parts of projects.
http://ourluxorflat.blogspot.co.uk/

george garside

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2018, 11:02:18 AM »

a good way of getting the hang of playing a melodeon smoothly  is to put aside row crossing  temporarily and concentrate on playing smoothly 'on the row'  treble only but as many right hand chords as  sound right.    Tunes played as slow aires lend themselves well to this   eg  waters of tyne, sweet hesleyside,  endearing yyoung charms, amazing grace, silent night, lilly marlene or whatever takes your fancy.



once the melody can be played smoothly and with lots of feeling - dynamic variations-  try adding bass chords only as a background 'drone' here and there but not constantly all the way through.

A little background rhythm can be added by GENTLE pulsing ( not shaking) of the bellows when they are going in the same direction for several treble notes worth of tune.


george



« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 04:32:38 PM by george garside »
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playandteach

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2018, 02:39:55 PM »

Has your condition eased then, Pete?  I do hope you are back to regular playing.
Thanks Edward,
I'm playing again, but not every day. Certainly I'm finding a way to ignore the irritating noise (not the playing). Thanks for the support.
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Edward Jennings

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2018, 07:48:38 PM »

Ignoring it would be the job. Thankfully, I don't have tinnitus but my wife has trouble sleeping at times because of barking guard dogs when we're in Egypt. She's amazed that I manage to go to sleep in spite of them, but I just ignore the noise. Sadly it's a skill which she hasn't managed to grasp!
I'm sure you'll get there.
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Edward
Windy Nook.
Hohner 114 in G. Hohner 1040 in C. International One Row 2 voice in D.  17 button 8 bass, bandoneon tuned, Squirrel with stops for both treble voices in C/F. Hohner (Pre-Corona?) in G/C/F, Hohner Corso in C/C#, Hohner Club 11 currently being converted from C/F to bandoneon tuned D/G, Ancient M. Hohner 2 voice 1 row in C. Plus projects and parts of projects.
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Andy Duckering

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2018, 08:29:56 PM »

With equal levels of skill applied to each instrument, the melodeon/anglo will suit "lumpy" dances while the English/PA will better suit French Cafe music.

Rob.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) I like both....  :D
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Andy Duckering

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2018, 01:04:33 PM »

I read on another thread that the single reed instruments sound quite shrill. Is that a general viewpoint? My feeling so far is that they sound less shrill but now I'm doubting myself.
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Edward Jennings

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2018, 01:43:19 PM »

Single reed D/G melodeons, in my experience, sound a lot less shrill than those with only the two "normal" voices. I bought a very nice Pokerwork in D/G the other week, specifically for the NE Playgroup, but I found the shrillness to be actually offensive! I sold it the following week.
A D/G, in my humble opinion, really needs to have a low sounding reed to make it bearable. So either a three voice LMM or a bandoneon tuned two voice, LM, is fine to my ear. But then I often play my G tuned HA114 with only the H reed sounding, it sounds quite concertina like, and I rather like it occasionally.
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Edward
Windy Nook.
Hohner 114 in G. Hohner 1040 in C. International One Row 2 voice in D.  17 button 8 bass, bandoneon tuned, Squirrel with stops for both treble voices in C/F. Hohner (Pre-Corona?) in G/C/F, Hohner Corso in C/C#, Hohner Club 11 currently being converted from C/F to bandoneon tuned D/G, Ancient M. Hohner 2 voice 1 row in C. Plus projects and parts of projects.
http://ourluxorflat.blogspot.co.uk/

Theo

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2018, 02:39:33 PM »

Don’t condem all 2 voice  MM DGs on the grounds of Edwards box sounding shrill,  it had not been tuned for a long time and is not a good example of the type.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2018, 02:40:59 PM »

I read on another thread that the single reed instruments sound quite shrill. Is that a general viewpoint? My feeling so far is that they sound less shrill but now I'm doubting myself.

There aren't that many single voice (reed) instruments around. Notable exceptions are the Castagnari Lilly and Giordy (often encountered, especially the Lilly), Saltarelle Epsilon and the Sandpiper Stint (both less common).

Generally they seem to be 'marmite' instruments - you either like them or hate them. The D/G version of the Castagnari Lilly is a powerful box with flat-mounted tipo a mano reeds, and when driven hard becomes really shrill. But many morris musicians seem to like it because of its compact size and light weight, as well as its loud sound carrying well outdoors. Not really my cuppa, but that's just my opinion.

The shrillness or otherwise of two-voice instruments is related in part to the degree of tremolo which has been set up. A very wet-tuned box (either by design or sometimes sheer neglect!) can sound quite shrill when played hard, again most noticeable in D/G boxes in the higher pitched end of the keyboard especially. Harsh-sounding, two voice boxes can usually be improved by some basic tuning and readjustment of the tremolo, with no detriment to the carrying power.
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Stiamh

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2018, 05:01:27 PM »

I read on another thread that the single reed instruments sound quite shrill. Is that a general viewpoint? My feeling so far is that they sound less shrill but now I'm doubting myself.

One factor that can make single-voice instruments sound unpleasant is modern equal-temperament tuning, which creates a harsh buzz when you play a right-hand chord.

For some reason this effect is much harsher (to my ear) with free reeds than with, say, the strings of a piano. A major third on the piano is, when you really listen to it, quite discordant. The same chord on a single-voice free-reed instrument is even more unpleasant.

Historically people have got around the problem on concertinas with various not-quite-ET temperaments (tuning schemes). I don't think it's a practical proposition on a melodeon/button accordion, certainly not on the semitone boxes I play. ("Cajun" tuned one-row accordions tweak some intervals for the same reason.)

The problem is obviated though by having more than one voice. Even a small amount of tremolo, as in swing tuning, will take the hard edge off those equal-temperament chords. I'd never buy a single-voice instrument for this reason.

Demonstration: https://youtu.be/Gdkb4o7R3-Q?t=16m51s

Andy Duckering

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2018, 03:05:36 PM »

So a trip to Hobgoblin this morning has taken the English off the list. I wasn't taken by the one I'd been waiting to come in but more disappointing was that I found it quite an uncomfortable and unnatural instrument to hold. I understand that might change with practice but it's not a particularly attractive situation to work through when other options exist. 

So... Either an anglo or a melodeon now..... I discovered I can actually comfortably manage bigger two-rows than just the Lilly sized ones so I'm pleased about that. My options haven't widened massively because of budgetary constraints but every little helps. I've heard that the Epsilon can be inconsistently built and I might get a good one, I might not. Not sure how true that is. I suspect this process will end up with money heading to Castagnari.....
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george garside

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2018, 05:07:04 PM »

a refurbished hohner pokerword or Erica  is well worth considering .  several professional players use them  regularly and although I have gone a bit upmarket over the years I still have  a DG pokerwork and a BC double ray/Erica that I would not part with and which I enjoy playing regularly.

Theo Gibb, Lester Bailey, Martin White  and others  may have something suitable available  or ready for refurbishment and tuning to your desired degree of wet or dry!

There is a list of dealers, repairers etc on this forum

george
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 05:08:45 PM by george garside »
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Andy Duckering

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2018, 05:10:45 PM »

Thank you George.
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Scobarandbar

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2018, 09:49:14 PM »

I would also, like George to vouch for a Pokerwork or Erica.  They are great instruments but I would say to make sure you get one that has been fettled properly as there is a lot of them needing work if you decide to pick one up privately (even the newer ones can need stuff doing depending on your requirements; bushing the buttons, limiting button travel, tuning, changing amount of tremolo you want etc.) What can seem a bargain can turn out to be expensive.  Fixing them up can be a long job and hence the cost.

I would say to make sure you get one that starts on the starting button of your choosing (third or fourth) as it is a bit of a job to change them over from one to the other and will cost you a good bit more money as you will have lots of reeds that need to be swapped and re-waxed in.   

After having said all that just buy one or borrow one and crack on learning.  Life's too short! 

« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 09:53:40 PM by Scobarandbar »
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Edward Jennings

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2018, 10:27:49 PM »

However much work needed to be done to an old Hohner, it could still be made to be a lovely and longlasting instrument for a lot less money than a Costalotti.
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Edward
Windy Nook.
Hohner 114 in G. Hohner 1040 in C. International One Row 2 voice in D.  17 button 8 bass, bandoneon tuned, Squirrel with stops for both treble voices in C/F. Hohner (Pre-Corona?) in G/C/F, Hohner Corso in C/C#, Hohner Club 11 currently being converted from C/F to bandoneon tuned D/G, Ancient M. Hohner 2 voice 1 row in C. Plus projects and parts of projects.
http://ourluxorflat.blogspot.co.uk/

george garside

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Re: Advice please if you would
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2018, 09:54:53 AM »

the box I play least is the 'costaloti' that I paid a lot of money for.  The one I play most and use in ceilidh bands is a second hand to me  3 voice serenellini which has never put a foot wrong or required any work in 20+ years.  All my other boxes are hohners - one row 4 stop , pokerwork DG, double ray (Erica) BC, Trichord BCC#, gaelic BCC#.

george
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