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Author Topic: Plywood vs Solid Casework  (Read 1953 times)

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boxer

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Re: Plywood vs Solid Casework
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2018, 07:18:05 PM »

After spending a lot of time wondering about instrument construction and the impact on tone I've come to the conclusion that, so far as boxes are concerned, there's no single criterion.  Some of the most cheaply built boxes I've played have had the best balance of weight, response and tone.  So have some of the most expensively built ones.  You can take two "identical" boxes and they'll play and sound very differently.  My experience has been that every box is a one-off, and a great deal of the feel and the sound is down to setup. 
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triskel

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Re: Plywood vs Solid Casework
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2018, 07:56:10 PM »

Triskel posted that makers such as Ramirez and Maccaferri used laminates.

And if "plywood" was good enough for these guys, it'll do for me... ;):

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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Plywood vs Solid Casework
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2018, 08:36:23 PM »

...Yes, it would be the Cloud. Very interesting discussions all around. It’s got me thinking that the Saranellini (plywood) option would be best.. only concerns are resale. Saltarelle is far more well known.. but also for their inconsistent products.
I think you need have no particular fears about re-sale. Serenellini is a known and well-respected maker, at least in the UK and continental Europe. They are well-made instruments, and seem to be very consistent (unlike Saltarelle).
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ProperTing

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Re: Plywood vs Solid Casework
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2018, 11:47:49 AM »

I think you need have no particular fears about re-sale. Serenellini is a known and well-respected maker, at least in the UK and continental Europe. They are well-made instruments, and seem to be very consistent (unlike Saltarelle).

Excellent! Thanks everyone!

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triskel

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Re: Plywood vs Solid Casework
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2018, 08:17:03 PM »

There was a discussion a while back about the "heritage" of Saltarelle in which an assertion was made that Serenellini never made any Saltarelle boxes.  Mine is pure Serenellini in every respect, including the lightweight  and very strong veneered ply casework. I've compared it with Serenellinis of similar vintage, and if you take the labels off you really can't tell them apart. You're never going to convince me (or several knowledgeable acquaintances) that my Saltarelle isn't a Serenellini.  Nothing at all wrong with GOOD QUALITY plywood for melodeon casework.

Indeed, I can say with certainty that I had one instrument off Serenellini (when I had a cotract with them to be their sole agent for the 233 model in Ireland) that they'd started building for Saltarelle a decade or so earlier. It was an early Connemara II with the name in a "window", but they'd literally "covered that up" with a solid walnut plaque, engraved with the Serenellini name, screwed over it.

Quote
Anyone making ABS or carbon fibre melodeons?

There's Thierry Benetoux, and a certain Dougie Briggs - http://briggsaccordions.com/carbon%20home.html...
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GPS

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Re: Plywood vs Solid Casework
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2018, 05:16:59 AM »


Indeed, I can say with certainty that I had one instrument off Serenellini (when I had a cotract with them to be their sole agent for the 233 model in Ireland) that they'd started building for Saltarelle a decade or so earlier. It was an early Connemara II with the name in a "window", but they'd literally "covered that up" with a solid walnut plaque, engraved with the Serenellini name, screwed over it.


Thanks for  that supporting evidence. Mine (see my avatar) is an early "window" Pastourelle II.

Graham

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IanD

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Re: Plywood vs Solid Casework
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2018, 10:30:53 PM »

Salterelle don't actually make anything though . . .

Dead right.  There was a discussion a while back about the "heritage" of Saltarelle in which an assertion was made that Serenellini never made any Saltarelle boxes.  Mine is pure Serenellini in every respect, including the lightweight  and very strong veneered ply casework. I've compared it with Serenellinis of similar vintage, and if you take the labels off you really can't tell them apart. You're never going to convince me (or several knowledgeable acquaintances) that my Saltarelle isn't a Serenellini.  Nothing at all wrong with GOOD QUALITY plywood for melodeon casework.  Anyone making ABS or carbon fibre melodeons?

Graham

Briggs has made at least one carbon fiber melodeon, but unfortunately he kept the thickness similar to plywood, which makes it heavier (carbon fiber/epoxy is denser than wood) and *ludicrously* strong (and expensive -- several times the cost of a "normal" Briggs!). He could have made it a third the thickness and half the weight and it would still have been stronger than plywood.

http://www.briggsaccordions.com/carbon%20home.html

When I asked him "Why?" he basically said it was easier to keep the internal and external dimensions the same as the wooden ones (and his are solid wood!) than change everything. A pity, it could have been more interesting and probably ten grand cheaper if he had...

[yes, I said ten grand *cheaper* -- now you know why there's no price on the website...]
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Plywood vs Solid Casework
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2018, 08:20:45 PM »

I always thought the benefit of carbon fibre was best employed in laminations, so a thin skin over a core of balsa or foam would achieve the required thickness, strength, robustness and weight reduction.  It does require some planning to include attachment points where a solid wood core is used.

In this sense Stormy Hyde is probably way out in front for use of alternative materials and construction methods.

Rob.
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IanD

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Re: Plywood vs Solid Casework
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2018, 06:48:51 PM »

I always thought the benefit of carbon fibre was best employed in laminations, so a thin skin over a core of balsa or foam would achieve the required thickness, strength, robustness and weight reduction.  It does require some planning to include attachment points where a solid wood core is used.

In this sense Stormy Hyde is probably way out in front for use of alternative materials and construction methods.

Rob.

The real benefit of carbon fibre is where you genuinely need huge strength/stiffness and light weight, for example in aerospace -- and a sandwich/skin/core construction is perfect for this. Melodeon cases don't really fall into this category, wood (or plywood) is perfectly well up to the job -- in fact if you want good stiffness vs. weight it's one of the best non-exotic materials around, as J.E.Gordon's book expounds at great length...
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melodeon

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Re: Plywood vs Solid Casework
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2018, 12:26:38 AM »

"Saltarelle don't actually make anything though.."

Contrarily, yes they do. They make money.

And they talk as if they do make accordeons  , and defend their quality in spite of the obvious, and contest the first hand observations and comments made by players and owners, to include we of the  Parish Pushers of Buttons.

I find no reason to use solid woods unless of extreme quality and figure.  Modest quality laminates far exceed the solid woods used by Saltarelle instruments made by  Dino Baffetti.

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mory

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Re: Plywood vs Solid Casework
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2018, 07:06:12 PM »

For goodness sake... :o ::) :-X
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Pete Dunk

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Re: Plywood vs Solid Casework
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2018, 10:43:13 PM »

Yes, quite.
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melodeon

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Re: Plywood vs Solid Casework
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2018, 02:58:09 PM »

Fact can be problematic for some. 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 03:05:08 PM by melodeon »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Plywood vs Solid Casework
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2018, 07:08:48 AM »

Oakwood used to use pre-veneered "aircraft ply" which is very strong and can be used thinner than solid wood, and the boxes they made this way (like mine) did sound very good -- but I don't know if they still do this, and the evidence (as opposed to opinion) is that the case material (including that used for the so-called "soundboard", which isn't one) makes no difference to the sound -- see here under Wood (body material)...

I played an Oakwood 3 row from 2004 to 2013 and … there was a lot of plywood inside. I have to say that I got more "what a lovely tone" compliments on that Oakwood than any other box. I presently have a Gaillard and a van der Aa, both solid wood. Previously Castas, ditto.

Of course this proves nothing, but for the record, the Gaillard and vdAa have the same Binci reeds.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 09:41:03 AM by Chris Ryall »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Plywood vs Solid Casework
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2018, 07:17:50 AM »


I have posted a link to this useful discussion in Melnet's

"ideas basket"  21th Century Box thread
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