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Author Topic: Converting a Club IIB to C#/D which notes should I order for accidentals?  (Read 434 times)

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Cam Button

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Hello Melnet,
I have a set of Harmonika reeds in C#/D that i want to install into a Hohner Club in C/F that has a four key accidental row. I need to order reeds for the additional keys. Does anyone know where I can find a reed chart with a C#/D 21+4 layout? I tried to locate one with Google but failed.
Thanks for your help. Cam
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Anahata

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Re: Converting a Club IIB to C#/D which notes should I order for accidentals?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2018, 07:47:13 AM »

I doubt there's a standard for that. Technically, a C♯/D doesn't need accidentals as such, as it has all the notes already.
I think someone (Owen Woods?) made a B/C with a C♯ half row. You could do similar and make them part of an E♭ row, or you could work out what reversals would be most useful for fingering, making RH chords and fitting in with the basses.
Anyway I suspect you'll have to decide what you'd like them to be, and get the reeds made specially.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 11:30:08 AM by Anahata »
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Stiamh

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Re: Converting a Club IIB to C#/D which notes should I order for accidentals?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2018, 11:04:08 AM »

This has come up before, at least a couple of times I think. See this topic: http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=4980.0

If I were faced with this decision again I think I'd just go for a short C row to maximise fluidity in the first octave.

fiddleboxdavey

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Re: Converting a Club IIB to C#/D which notes should I order for accidentals?
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2018, 02:09:11 PM »

I have a Vander Aa two and a half row with the extra 4 accidental buttons.
I put a lot of thought into the layout from a point of view of right hand chord possibilities and also runs of notes through tunes on the push or the pull of the bellows crossing over to the accidentals row. In the end the most obvious notes I came up with were merely reversals of the equivalent notes on the D row.
I play for Ceilidh dances predominately and to be honest, apart from some right hand chord work with slow airs or waltzes, I don’t use the extra buttons much at all and certainly nothing like I was intending! It’ll depend on what you like to play yourself. It’s nice having the option of using the extra notes and the right hand chords can work very well.
I have the same model of hohner as you, also in C/F, sitting here waiting to be converted to C#/D. I’ll go for the same accidental row layout again.
Here is what I used-
From the top (from the chin end & push/pull)-
E/D, G/G#, B/A, E/D

Good luck with your project.

Davey
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Cam Button

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Re: Converting a Club IIB to C#/D which notes should I order for accidentals?
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2018, 10:31:57 PM »

Thank you for your responses, and sharing of experience.

I don't understand the significance of the change from upper case to lower case while marking notation. I'm assuming it is a change to a lower octave?

 e.g.    E/F , G/A , c/D , e/d  is   E5/F5/, G5/A5 , c4/D5 , e4/d4 .

Sorry if this akin to asking if water is wet. I'm on a steep learning curve here.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Converting a Club IIB to C#/D which notes should I order for accidentals?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2018, 11:19:05 PM »

Thank you for your responses, and sharing of experience.

I don't understand the significance of the change from upper case to lower case while marking notation. I'm assuming it is a change to a lower octave?

 e.g.    E/F , G/A , c/D , e/d  is   E5/F5/, G5/A5 , c4/D5 , e4/d4 .

Sorry if this akin to asking if water is wet. I'm on a steep learning curve here.
Upper and lower case can mean different octaves, especially when combined with comma and apostrophe symbols. But beware - it's not completely standardised.

For example, in ABC coding, C,,= C2, C,=C3, C = C4 (middle C) c = C5, c'=C6, c''-C7 etc. But various instrument makers may use upper and lower case differently. The only safe way is to use the octave number suffixes.

In the example you quote: E/F , G/A , c/D , e/d would normally correspond to E4/F4  G4/A4  c5/D4  e5/d5.
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-Y-

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Re: Converting a Club IIB to C#/D which notes should I order for accidentals?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2018, 11:22:02 PM »

You're right it's a change in octave.

Here is a layout I had in mind some years back from now, but I didn't go as far as ordering an accordion like that (I had the opportunity to have a cheap c#/d, which was enough for discovering the system). The idea is, as was said previously, to have some useful reversals (especially when you're used to a continental system like me). Also, it is "fully" chromatic on the pull. You already have all the notes from the chromatic scale, but here you can do all the chords you like (though not necessarily with all the inversions). It was thought along a 12, unisonoric basses system.
With only 8 basses, Stiamh proposal is quite a good one, although maybe I'd go for a G row, so as to have some reversal and cross-row fingering inherited from the continental system. But anyway, Stiamh's view on C#/D are good advice, so you can follow them without any second thought I'd say.
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Y.

Planchée, folk music from Eastern BrittanyIsidore et les sans-soucis, folk music from Québec

(please excuse any misspelling or odd wording, english is not my mother tongue)

richard.fleming

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Re: Converting a Club IIB to C#/D which notes should I order for accidentals?
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2018, 09:19:15 AM »

You don't need extra accidentals on a C#/D. Put some wood in the extra holes.
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gettabettabox

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Re: Converting a Club IIB to C#/D which notes should I order for accidentals?
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2018, 11:16:35 AM »

Get those bits of wood from the extra holes you make in the bass end...for extra chords! 
I am happy to buy your harmonikas reedset as a penance for this quip.   :D
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-Y-

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Re: Converting a Club IIB to C#/D which notes should I order for accidentals?
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2018, 01:31:22 PM »

I think that's not really the question that was asked, actually. I rather agree with what you say, but that's hardly relevant.
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Y.

Planchée, folk music from Eastern BrittanyIsidore et les sans-soucis, folk music from Québec

(please excuse any misspelling or odd wording, english is not my mother tongue)

Stiamh

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Re: Converting a Club IIB to C#/D which notes should I order for accidentals?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2018, 01:53:02 PM »

The 2nd-octave f-natural on the pull in Yannick's scheme strikes me as very useful. I've been wrangling recently with a few tunes in A minor (true A minor, not Dorian) and G Dorian, and the push f-natural is really awkward. But the answer is of course, learn to work with it, rather than look for another button - after all, next week you could be wrestling with tunes that present some other awkward combination.

Still, if you have extra buttons, you might as well put something there other than bits of wood. Another thing I mused about was to use the extra buttons for non-ET notes, particularly for Irish music usually heard on fiddles. How sweet it would be to be able to throw in, at the right moment, a just-tuned (slightly flat of ET) B natural in G tunes à la Paddy Fahey, or a F-supernatural, or a C-supernatural....

richard.fleming

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Re: Converting a Club IIB to C#/D which notes should I order for accidentals?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2018, 01:59:39 PM »

I think there might be something to be said for selling the CF to someone who likes that kind of thing and just buying a nice C#/D. A friend of mine goes in for lots of accidentals, but that seems to be to overcome the deficiencies of a DG box. If he'd bought a semitone box in the first place he'd not have needed them. I also think that the brain and the muscles and nerves and so on learn the pattern of each of the keys in which one plays and it must be very disruptive to that patterning if one has to dodge off somewhere to find an accidental. And if the issue is fitting in with basses, well why not do a mini-stradella bass end. That would be a nice project for someone who liked that kind of fettling.
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Cam Button

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Re: Converting a Club IIB to C#/D which notes should I order for accidentals?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2018, 04:47:35 PM »

Thank you Steve, and Y for clearing up the notation.
I think I'll repair the Hohner reeds, and install the C#/D set. I think converting the club is a low cost  way to determine if a semitone box is for me. I tried a Linnet B/C, and passed that box onto someone else. Perhaps I should have sought a better study guide with more practice instead of changing to a one row. I'm waiting for our Czech friends to send a price quote.
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-Y-

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Re: Converting a Club IIB to C#/D which notes should I order for accidentals?
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2018, 05:04:20 PM »

If you're learning c#/d on your own, may I suggest the YouTube channel maintained by Steve ?

https://www.youtube.com/user/ZiziAllaire

Lots of useful stuff, some session standards are explained bit by bit, and also some basic guidelines for beginners that can save you a lot of time and prevent you from piling up bad practices.
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Y.

Planchée, folk music from Eastern BrittanyIsidore et les sans-soucis, folk music from Québec

(please excuse any misspelling or odd wording, english is not my mother tongue)
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