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Author Topic: grace note?  (Read 2578 times)

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Thrupenny Bit

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grace note?
« on: August 14, 2018, 12:54:31 PM »

Hi Peeps,
Currently transposing a tune.
It has in small type an A note leading into a G-F-G set of notes.
It's obvious the 'A' is a grace note  to lead into the rest.
I've annotated it as " ~A " in my tabulature.
It seems to appear in the music score produced  as a a larger note but does sound ok when I play the midi file.

Is the " ~ " correct or is there a better way to annotate a grace or slight note to lead into a series of dots?
cheers
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Anahata

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Re: grace note?
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2018, 01:29:22 PM »

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deltasalmon

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Re: grace note?
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2018, 01:56:49 PM »

~ usually means a roll. For a grace note you would use {}.

If you look at Cooley's reel which should be the default here you can see both of them being used. Dots on one side, ABC on the other.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: grace note?
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2018, 01:59:53 PM »

Ah yes, {} works a treat!
Thanks both. Notation sorted  (:)
Q
off notating..
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Chris Ryall

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Re: grace note?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2018, 01:54:07 PM »

Aren't these player specific things, rather than part of the tune?
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: grace note?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2018, 02:46:25 PM »

Yes, I know what you mean Chris and I too understand grace notes as 'optional' for the player.
I have a new tune book and want to transcribe directly the music as shown to enable me to play the created midi file so I can hear it as the composer intended. Several tunes have them annotated, therefore I wanted to understand how to transcribe them into abc notation, hence my post.
cheers
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

deltasalmon

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Re: grace note?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2018, 03:18:54 PM »

Aren't these player specific things, rather than part of the tune?

Does that mean there's no point in writing them down?
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Sean McGinnis
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: grace note?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2018, 05:38:01 PM »

Aren't these player specific things, rather than part of the tune?

Does that mean there's no point in writing them down?

It depends. Sometimes the transcriber wants, or needs, to indicate how a particular musician played the tune. It doesn't mean that the ornamentation should be slavishly followed, but it can give an idea to someone who doesn't know.

But in some traditions, e.g. Scottish pibroch (bagpipe) playing and notation, the grace notes are very carefully prescribed, and in competitions you will lose points if you don't play the gracing properly.  :o
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: grace note?
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2018, 05:43:42 PM »

Steve has summed up my reason perfectly.
Thank you kind sir.
Q
somebody who doesn't know.....
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Thrupenny Bit

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Pete Dunk

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Re: grace note?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2018, 11:10:20 PM »

Aren't these player specific things, rather than part of the tune?

Does that mean there's no point in writing them down?

No, but you do need to remember that grace notes are usually written with a particular instrument in mind. Very few, if any, were ever written with a diatonic button accordion in mind, so it's fine to take them or leave them as you will.
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deltasalmon

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Re: grace note?
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2018, 12:53:33 AM »

I agree it's fine to take them or leave them. Q asked how to record them for whatever reason. I don't see why questioning whether it's "part of the tune" or "player specific" not has anything to do with it. There was no mention that a transcription was supposed to be followed exactly.

There are plenty of reasons to transcribe a certain setting of a tune. Steve mentioned Highland bagpipes which are very strict about what ornaments are used and when. Someone might also like the way Jon Spiers plays "Sportsman's Hornpipe" and want to transcribe it from a certain recording. Again, there was no mention of religiously following what was written down. There are certainly reasons for recording ornamention though.
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Sean McGinnis
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Re: grace note?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2018, 04:46:25 PM »

I have a new tune book and want to transcribe directly the music as shown to enable me to play the created midi file so I can hear it as the composer intended.

I'm afraid there is no guarantee that what you hear will be anything like what the writer intended.

The topic of gracenotes in written music is immensely complex and requires knowledge of the idiom, the composer, the period, and not least the instrument.  Your MIDI player has no idea about any of these and will just do whatever it thinks best. 

In general, computer generated playback tends to lose a lot of nuance that tends not to be explicitly taught - it's fine for a sense of the tune and for an experienced musician but please, be very wary of attempting to blindly copy it. 
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: grace note?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2018, 05:30:54 PM »

Thank you for your advice.
The music is from old manuscripts but edited by a person who has a good reputation for his tune books, and I trust his interpretation of the old tunes.
I'm merely taking his dots and putting them into abc to compliment my poor sight reading so that between it all I can have some idea of the tunes written. Part of that was how to write a grace note that appeared in a tune, hence my question.
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

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Roger Hare

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Re: grace note?
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2018, 06:46:32 AM »

...Your MIDI player has no idea about any of these and will just do whatever it thinks best...

It's certainly the case that a MIDI player appears not to differentiate between the two
ways of specifying a grace note ({x}, {/x}). No audible difference as far as I can hear...
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 06:48:10 AM by lachenal74693 »
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: grace note?
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2018, 08:37:12 AM »

For me, if a Tunebook has an accompanying cd then it is the perfect match.
I can read the dots and listen to how a competent player tackles the tune, the nuances and little things that lift the tune.
An old manuscript, or Tunebook with no accompanying music, leaves it down to my limited sight reading ability.
Whilst a midi file might not be perfect, it is certainly better than my sight reading alone and so helps me get a feeling for the tune.
If it's a tune I really enjoy, then adopt into my repertoire, over the course of time it might be that I put my interpretation into it and 'make it mine'.
Listening to a midi file whilst looking at the dots in an abc file is the first step for me.
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: grace note?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2018, 09:32:48 AM »

I find Guido Gonzato's guide an enormous help when I get stuck with abc. You can get the latest edition from the Sourceforge abc site (which Guido maintained, I think he still does)
but here is a quick link to a 2017 edition. There's a link to the Sourceforge site on page 2.
Don't be put off by the technical stuff at the beginning. The "how to do stuff" bits are pretty easy to follow and the index is good.

http://richardrobinson.tunebook.org.uk/static/abcprogs/abcplus_en.pdf
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 09:36:25 AM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: grace note?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2018, 10:52:59 AM »

Great - thanks Greg.
That's more info for me to digest!
ta
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!
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