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[Steve_freereeder]

Just a couple of points arising from Gena's post...

So, right now, if I go to the any dealer or shop in the UK, and look to buy a new instrument, perhaps a nice new Castagnari Tommy for a cool 2 or 3 grand because I just adore it. I know it's going to be L M⁰ M⁺, and I have to wonder, just how long will it be before the skilled musicians look down their noses at me and say, "you know, that instrument of yours is out of tune with itself". So... maybe I shouldn't buy it, or perhaps I should ask the dealer to have it retuned as Viennese, but, they've never heard of that and now I have to try and explain it and so on...

Castagnari Tommys are great instruments. I played one myself for several years and loved it. The standard Castagnari factory tuning normally works very well. It's non-Viennese L⁰M⁰/M⁺ with a light swing tremolo in the M voices which for Castagnari usually means about 1 - 2 Hz tremolo.

One of the peculiarities of the Tommy (and also the Lilly) is the LH basses and chords arrangement. For the economy of size and weight, on each button there is a shared reed which fulfils the function of tonic in the chord and uppermost bass tonic (the basses consist of two notes tuned 2 octaves apart). Because of the construction of the reed chambers, the shared reed goes a bit sharp when both bass and chord buttons are pressed simultaneously. This is not really noticeable in normal playing conditions unless you have very sensitive ears, but it does mean that it is better in tune with a slightly sharp perceived pitch of the RH side M⁰/M⁺.

Tuning of a Tommy is always going to be a compromise - it just isn't possible to get every note on both sides to be exactly in tune with all the others all the time. But with the light swing tremolo, it doesn't really matter; the amount of out-of-tuneness is minimal and barely detectable to most people's ears. My advice to Tommy owners (actual or prospective) is to not worry about it; just enjoy playing this lovely little box.

I can tell you that, if I sent an instrument away to have it dedic tuned based on some of the posts that I'd read, with a 4hz tremolo, and my instrument had a low G scale, and the low G note came back sounding like this (the G3 Dedic simulation I made), I would feel like I had maybe made a mistake. I mean, don't get me wrong a) maybe it wouldn't actually sound like that, and b) if it was m0 m+, that m+ would have to be like 35 cents sharp, but, I didn't really realise what 4hz tremolo on a low note like that might sound like until I worked it out for this thread.

Yes - the 4 Hz tremolo on those really low notes does sound a bit grating to my ears, and, in my personal opinion, this is where the constant 4 Hz tremolo across the range begins to fall down. I prefer to tune 'on the curve' where the tremolo varies across the range: slower at low pitches becoming progressively faster (but not too much) at higher pitches. The tuning curve I use is one I developed after sampling and listening to various instruments, particularly the 1930s Hohners, and from discussions with various human tuners. See attached - the purple blobs show the tremolo rate.

Obviously you can have as much or as little tremolo as you want - it's a very subjective, personal thing - but for me this curve seems to work nicely with Hohners, resulting in a sweet, moderate tremolo, not as wild as the factory tuning which modern Pokerworks and Ericas typically come with.

Edited to correct a typo

[Gena Crisman]

Because of the construction of the reed chambers, the shared reed goes a bit sharp when both bass and chord buttons are pressed simultaneously. This is not really noticeable in normal playing conditions unless you have very sensitive ears, but it does mean that it is better in tune with a slightly sharp perceived pitch of the RH side M⁰/M⁺.

I gotta be honest, I was just playing make believe, but, that's absolutely fascinating.

So does this make a wet dedic tuned melodeon more acceptable to other musicians?

I felt empowered to answer the OP's original question: Would Viennese tuning help with heavy Tremolo?

https://youtu.be/ekf7h7cYI3k

We were already pretty confident that the answer was yes, but, now everyone can make up their own mind too!

Future people searching this thread: this is what Viennese tuning aims to solve, but, this is taking the issue far to the extreme. To achieve a 7hz beat, the + reed on this conventionally tuned simulation is tuned like 60 cents sharp, meaning it's actually closer to G# than G. Bear in mind that, the objections of others may not just be from the overall sharpness of the note, but perhaps also from the aggressive tremolo. In principal though, this same effect is happening all over a conventionally tuned M⁰M⁺ melody end of a squeezebox and despite being a much reduced effect compared to this, in some circumstances it can still be apparent to some people, which may include you, but, a) if your reeds are the regular sort of out of tune then that's a far bigger deal and b) it's directly proportional to how much tremolo the instrument is set up for so less-wet instruments are not as significantly affected.

Not really many reasons to not have them tuned this way though, see Anahata's post earlier here, but probably not a big deal for your next big melodeon purchase.

[Theo]

If you prefer a very light tremolo then the advantage of Viennese tuning is reduced. 

Asking for a comparison between Viennese and conventional tuning is probably the wrong question.  What is required is some sort of measure to find a  threshold tremolo rate above which most people can appreciate the difference between the two systems.

There is also a big difference between peoples sensitivity to pitch differences and tuning errors.  For me it's the equal temperament major third.  It's nearly 15 cents too wide of pure tuning.  It's horrible, but many people don't notice that.  Also consider the way that Hohner pokerwoks come from the factory - if you measure the tuning it is all over the place, but many continue to play them like that for years.

[Tone Dumb Greg]

Well, I mean, the thing is we're not looking for someone to like, play a tune, or ostensibly detune an entire instrument just to please our whims.

To be honest I think someone playing a tune is exactly what I was after. Les has provided a fine example of a Dedic instrument played in isolation. His Erica sounds great. The problem, for me,  is, I'm not sure that it sounds better than any well fettled Hohner would and he says Martin did a lot of work on it, so a pre-fettling audio sample might not be a fair example.

I suspect this tuning might come into its own, in a big way, when playing in duets, or small ensembles, with playrers of fixed intonation instruments. A good fiddler can and will adjust their playing to match the company they're in. A concertina player or pianist can't make this compromise.

Clearly, it would take a selfless and driven individual to undertake a complete retuning of an instrument just to demonstrate something they hear on a regular basis.

What I had in mind was someone who had already got good quality recordings of themselves playing an MoM+ melodeon in duet  with, say, a good concertina player,  making a similar recording on a  Dedic/Viennese instrument. We're not talking controlled experiments here. If the benefit doesn't jump out at you it may be too subtle to bother with. On the other hand, given the support the system is getting from very knowledgeable players and fettlers, the result may well be astounding.

[Winston Smith]

In the main, I've been really enjoying this thread!
Nevertheless, it would seem (to the relatively uninitiated, who is also a wearer of hearing aids) that the only difference between Dedic/Viennese tuning and that which we would ordinarily call "normal" tuning, is that it comes across as being actually in tune instead of sounding out of tune with the bass end or other instruments, to whichever degree.
I'm at a loss as to why any other tuning would now be tolerated, when I think about it. Depending on the offset of the M's, surely the actual sound will be the same?

[Anahata]

There is also a big difference between peoples sensitivity to pitch differences and tuning errors.  For me it's the equal temperament major third.  It's nearly 15 cents too wide of pure tuning.  It's horrible, but many people don't notice that.

Martyn also did my LH thirds in tune, and it does make the chords sound very sweet. He also made the smaller adjustment to the 5ths so they are perfectly in tune too. It clashes with the RH thirds, of course, but it's no worse than if they were ET on both sides, and when the RH note isn't the 3rd of the chord you win all round.

Also consider the way that Hohner pokerwoks come from the factory - if you measure the tuning it is all over the place, but many continue to play them like that for years.

...perhaps giving melodeons a bad name and sending players off to the Costalotti dealers for something "better". I wonder if the relative popularity of Italian boxes would be less if Hohners all came out of the factory really nicely tuned, because there are some fabulous sounding Hohners that have been properly fettled.

(yes, I'm aware that new boxes don't always come out of Castagnari in perfect tune either)

[Tone Dumb Greg]

Is anyone planning on taking a Viennese tuned box to Sidmouth, on Sunday?

[Julian S]

Ok. When I win lotsa money on the lottery  , I will buy two identical (!) boxes (but which ?), and commission a tuner to tune one as Viennese and one as standard, with the same degree of tremelo -if possible that is. We can then appoint a committee to assess the results, and I will undertake a tour of sessions, workshops etc to undertake the necessary market research amongst both melodeonistas and other instrumentalists to assess satisfaction levels. Oh well, back to reality.
I'm pretty sure that in my local session, with a wide variety of instruments - including of course other melodeons, played to a wide range of abilities (and intuneness!) few people would notice the difference in sound between a standard tuned and Viennese tuned instrument, except the player. Same of course playing outdoors for dancing. However, if one is playing in a small ensemble, including perhaps single reed instruments, then the difference is certainly more evident,in my experience.
I regularly play with a fiddler, and a guitarist - who could tune to my instruments but usually use their own tuners. I think I've got a pretty good sense of pitch, and whilst I haven't asked the other musicians opinions, I'm pretty certain the overall sound is better because my usual Saltarelle instrument has been retuned. (Ok, admittedly it wasn't in great order before) My Castagnari has much less tremelo, so I think the difference is less apparent.
Fact is, I played Pokerworks for Morris dancing for many years, and as long as the instrument was roughly in tune and all reeds sounded okayish I didn't worry - and I doubt that I would have my Binci super 3 which I now play for   Morris retuned. But I rarely pick up that instrument when learning new tunes, or playing for my own amusement (though maybe of course I would if it was fettled by an expert)
I'd better go out and buy that winning lottery ticket I suppose ! And maybe move on to this months tune...

J

Ps, I'm at Sidmouth from next Wednesday and if anyone there wants to try my Salty Pasty just ask.

[Stiamh]

There is also a big difference between peoples sensitivity to pitch differences and tuning errors.  For me it's the equal temperament major third.  It's nearly 15 cents too wide of pure tuning.  It's horrible, but many people don't notice that.

It really is horrible, but for some reason I think it sounds worse on free-reed instruments. On a piano it's ghastly enough, but on (say) a concertina it's worse. And in fact on an accordion you have to hear it on a single-voice instrument to appreciate its true horribleness. Any tremolo will take the hard edge off the ET major third and render it un-horrible, really. I would never want to own a single-voice instrument for that reason. And, since I play a semitone box that allows me to tackle a fairly wide range of keys, tremolo has reconciled me to the horrors of ET. At least on the r/h side!

I demonstrate the horror and the saving grace of tremolo in one of my introductory videos for beginners (starting 16m52s).

[Helena Handcart]

Is anyone planning on taking a Viennese tuned box to Sidmouth, on Sunday?

Mmm... possibly. Haven't got to that part of the packing list yet. 

[Winston Smith]

If there were Pokerworks and Ericas in attendance, perhaps there might be the possibility of a trial swap of Dedic tuned blocks vs. "ordinary" for comparison?

[Theo]

With Hohners you would have to ensure that the ordinary one was recently tuned, because the factory toning is so bad.

[Winston Smith]

That would go without saying, I'm sure that most of the Melnetters aren't fellow cheapskates playing poorly adjusted instruments.

[IanD]

Is anyone planning on taking a Viennese tuned box to Sidmouth, on Sunday?

Yes, I'll have my Oakwood there (recently retuned by Martyn White) and my Baffetti Binci -- which was retuned when I got it several years ago, and after heavy Morris use I realised now needs retuning after comparing it to the Oakwood...

[mselic]

That would go without saying, I'm sure that most of the Melnetters aren't fellow cheapskates playing poorly adjusted instruments.

Every Hohner that I’ve ever played, unless recently fettled by a professional, was in need of at least some tuning work. This most certainly applies to new instruments. A lot of people just don’t notice, which is ok, too.

[baz parkes]

Ps, I'm at Sidmouth from next Wednesday and if anyone there wants to try my Salty Pasty just ask.

In my time, I've indulged in a few salty pasties at Sidmouth...