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Author Topic: Dedic tuning and wetness  (Read 15989 times)

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Julian S

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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #80 on: July 30, 2018, 09:51:41 AM »


This does not apply to the limerick thread obvs. We're never going back there....
[/quote]

For a reason you're not going to share...?

Back on topic - personally I've found this thread to be really interesting (though often completely above my head) . It might have been discussed at great length previously but sometimes it does pay to revisit old topics even if the same old ground gets covered, as Lester points out.
Having now got my favourite Saltarelle box retuned to Dedic/Viennese I'm convinced of the benefits - it sounds great. However, I'm not certain whether it's worth having my Castagnari Dony retuned, as it is so much drier in tuning and I would think the difference would accordingly be much less.
This might also be a pretty basic consideration - it must be essential to ensure that each set of reeds speak with the same responsiveness, not to say volume. Applies whatever the tuning I suppose, but not being an expert I don't know whether this is always checked by tuners.

J



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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #81 on: July 30, 2018, 10:51:58 AM »

"I don't know whether this is always checked by tuners."

During my fledgling attempts at tuning, I have noticed that adjusting the reed gap to change/equalise the response time, also changes the tuning of the particular reed. This leads me to think that a professional tuner is on a hiding to nothing if he is expected to work to a customer's (too tight) budget.
It must be the devil's own job for them to try and make boxes, belonging to cheapskates like me, play and sound at their optimum level without robbing themselves. (I'm acutely aware of the difficulties which I resent poor Theo with, as I suffered 40 odd years of similar situations with my own customers!)
It would seem that, with older boxes at least, simply "tuning" is really an inadequate option, and that a reed overhaul should possibly be a minimum service for these blokes to offer in order to preserve their reputations and sanity. Except that it would bugger up the chances of poorer players improving the sound and playability of their older rubbishy instruments. A conundrum, perhaps?
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #82 on: July 30, 2018, 11:01:30 AM »

...However, I'm not certain whether it's worth having my Castagnari Dony retuned, as it is so much drier in tuning and I would think the difference would accordingly be much less....

It's up to you and whether you can hear a discrepancy between the LH and RH sides (especially higher up the range). If it sounds OK then probably best to leave any decision until the time comes to have the tuning checked anyway. Then you can have a discussion with your tuner about putting it in to Viennese tuning.

One advantage of having a light tremolo anyway (i.e. typical Castagnari 'light swing' tuning) is that the amount of retuning required to put it in to Viennese tuning is minimal, generally just a very few cents flattening from M0/M+ to M-/M+

In contrast, retuning, for example, a typical factory-tuned ( = sharp-tuned!), robust tremolo, Hohner Erica or Pokerwork in the same way may require considerable flattening of each reed, perhaps as much as 15 - 20 cents, especially at the lower-pitched end.

This might also be a pretty basic consideration - it must be essential to ensure that each set of reeds speak with the same responsiveness, not to say volume. Applies whatever the tuning I suppose, but not being an expert I don't know whether this is always checked by tuners.

I always check the gap and response setting of each reed and adjust as necessary as the preliminary to the actual tuning process; similarly checking the wax is sound and all the valves are functioning properly.
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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #83 on: July 30, 2018, 11:15:21 AM »

"I don't know whether this is always checked by tuners."

During my fledgling attempts at tuning, I have noticed that adjusting the reed gap to change/equalise the response time, also changes the tuning of the particular reed...

...It would seem that, with older boxes at least, simply "tuning" is really an inadequate option, and that a reed overhaul should possibly be a minimum service for these blokes to offer in order to preserve their reputations and sanity. Except that it would bugger up the chances of poorer players improving the sound and playability of their older rubbishy instruments. A conundrum, perhaps?

Yes - well spotted, Edward. This is why I treat tuning as a reiterative process.

First, I check the wax (if used) is OK, then the valves, and then check the reed gap and response, and adjust as necessary. Once that's done I can measure the actual pitches of each reed in situ in the box and calculate the changes required to tune each reed to its target pitch. Only then do I put file or scraper to the reed.

Then I test to see if the reed response is still OK and adjust any gaps as necessary. If I've been gentle with the reed tuning process (as one should anyway), there is usually little or no adjustment needed.

Then comes the playing and listening tests and more careful measurements of the reed pitches and adjustment as necessary. Typically I will go through the box up to three times making progressively fewer and finer adjustments until I am satisfied.

It takes time and patience, and a determination to get things right as opposed to 'well, it's near enough'.
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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #84 on: July 30, 2018, 11:31:59 AM »

My original post arose from a search of older posts, I just didn't find the answer to my specific question (yes, it probably was there somewhere, I just couldn't find it)

As it is, I am glad that I did post the question, as there have been some fascinating replies.

Thanks to all who have responded!
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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #85 on: July 30, 2018, 11:45:16 AM »

Here's a video I posted this morning of my recently fettled Liliput in Bb Eb - Dedic tuned to -5 +5 by Martyn White.

I play a tune (Stoney Steps Hornpipe at 9:24) and go through both sides of the instrument.  This might be of interest to those who have contributed to this thread.  Photos of Martyn's work near the end at 11.00.

https://youtu.be/_JyPFfJRkRU

Les
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 12:02:52 PM by Daddy Long Les »
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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #86 on: July 30, 2018, 02:09:02 PM »

Hi, just been reading some old posts on dedic tuning, which prompted a thought. With normal m/m+ tuning then presumably the wetter you get, the more out of tune you get. So does this make a wet dedic tuned melodeon more acceptable to other musicians?

Looking at Rags original post I took it to mean "does it sound more in harmony with other instruments?" I may be wrong (I frequently am), but I would have thought a way to test this would be compare a Dedic ( M- M+ ) melodeon, playing along with another instrument with a "conventionally tuned ( Mo M+ ) melodeon, otherwise as similar as possible, playing the same tune along with the same instrument. Has anyone ever done this?   
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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #87 on: July 30, 2018, 03:50:39 PM »

Looking at Rags original post I took it to mean "does it sound more in harmony with other instruments?" I may be wrong (I frequently am), but I would have thought a way to test this would be compare a Dedic ( M- M+ ) melodeon, playing along with another instrument with a "conventionally tuned ( Mo M+ ) melodeon, otherwise as similar as possible, playing the same tune along with the same instrument. Has anyone ever done this?

Fiddle-, guitar- and concertina-playing colleagues have commented how they like the sound of my Viennese-tuned melodeons because "it sounds in tune with my instrument".

As for carrying out your suggested comparison test, I've never needed to do it as (a) I can hear my instrument is in tune with itself on both treble and bass/chords sides and (b) because of what I've just written in my opening sentence.

Viennese tuning is a well-established method which works and the evidence comes from years of players' and listeners' experience. The first time I tried it out for myself by tuning one of my own instruments that way was a real revelation. It sounded lovely - mwahh! :-*.  Why go to the trouble of testing an in-tune instrument against one which is out of tune? I wonder whether your proposed test would be not so much a test of the tuning as a test of the sensitivity of the listeners' hearing. I suspect that some (many, hopefully) people would be able to tell the difference, but perhaps some others would not.
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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #88 on: July 30, 2018, 07:01:04 PM »

Fair enough, Steve. You are clear about which you prefer. I was just wondering if anyone had tried anything  like this in the past. For those of us who have less experience and access to instruments, a sound file is worth a thousand letters on a page  ;D.

I have tried searching the numerous posts, here, and I haven't managed to find anything that really demonstrates a superior musicality when dedic tuning is played in company with other types of instrument compared with standard MoM+, in the same company. This seems surprising, considering how much this has been discussed and  I was wondering if anyone has seen or heard anything like this that comes to mind.
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Greg Smith
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IanD

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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #89 on: July 31, 2018, 05:19:55 PM »

Fair enough, Steve. You are clear about which you prefer. I was just wondering if anyone had tried anything  like this in the past. For those of us who have less experience and access to instruments, a sound file is worth a thousand letters on a page  ;D.

I have tried searching the numerous posts, here, and I haven't managed to find anything that really demonstrates a superior musicality when dedic tuning is played in company with other types of instrument compared with standard MoM+, in the same company. This seems surprising, considering how much this has been discussed and  I was wondering if anyone has seen or heard anything like this that comes to mind.

But other skilled non-melodeon-playing musicians have said that it sounds better when played with their (concert pitch) instruments, especially concertina and fiddle players who are fussy about pitch/tuning (or have perfect pitch), and many people who've tried it have had this experience on numerous occasions. I don't know what more evidence you're looking for, it's certainly not just a personal preference among those who've chosen to use this tuning and could be said to be biased...
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 05:25:17 PM by IanD »
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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #90 on: July 31, 2018, 06:54:42 PM »

Fair enough, Steve. You are clear about which you prefer. I was just wondering if anyone had tried anything  like this in the past. For those of us who have less experience and access to instruments, a sound file is worth a thousand letters on a page  ;D.

I have tried searching the numerous posts, here, and I haven't managed to find anything that really demonstrates a superior musicality when dedic tuning is played in company with other types of instrument compared with standard MoM+, in the same company. This seems surprising, considering how much this has been discussed and  I was wondering if anyone has seen or heard anything like this that comes to mind.

But other skilled non-melodeon-playing musicians have said that it sounds better when played with their (concert pitch) instruments, especially concertina and fiddle players who are fussy about pitch/tuning (or have perfect pitch), and many people who've tried it have had this experience on numerous occasions. I don't know what more evidence you're looking for, it's certainly not just a personal preference among those who've chosen to use this tuning and could be said to be biased...

I'm not intending to be pedantic. I'm just interested in hearing the difference.  To see if I like it. Just wondered if anyone had done a comparison. I'm not saying it's not good. I'm sure it's marvelous, but it doesn't seem to be universally adopted. . I just think it would be interesting to hear it and that seems to be unlikely. Otherwise discussion is pretty meaningless. Just words.

Also, maybe there will be something about it that's not so good, or , at least, that I won't like. A lot of great melodeon players stick to  "conventional" tremelo settings. I'm sure they're all not ignorant.  My experience is that things are rarely absolute.
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Greg Smith
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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #91 on: July 31, 2018, 07:24:18 PM »

Fair enough, Steve. You are clear about which you prefer. I was just wondering if anyone had tried anything  like this in the past. For those of us who have less experience and access to instruments, a sound file is worth a thousand letters on a page  ;D.

I have tried searching the numerous posts, here, and I haven't managed to find anything that really demonstrates a superior musicality when dedic tuning is played in company with other types of instrument compared with standard MoM+, in the same company. This seems surprising, considering how much this has been discussed and  I was wondering if anyone has seen or heard anything like this that comes to mind.

But other skilled non-melodeon-playing musicians have said that it sounds better when played with their (concert pitch) instruments, especially concertina and fiddle players who are fussy about pitch/tuning (or have perfect pitch), and many people who've tried it have had this experience on numerous occasions. I don't know what more evidence you're looking for, it's certainly not just a personal preference among those who've chosen to use this tuning and could be said to be biased...

I'm not intending to be pedantic. I'm just interested in hearing the difference.  To see if I like it. Just wondered if anyone had done a comparison. I'm not saying it's not good. I'm sure it's marvelous, but it doesn't seem to be universally adopted. . I just think it would be interesting to hear it and that seems to be unlikely. Otherwise discussion is pretty meaningless. Just words.

Also, maybe there will be something about it that's not so good, or , at least, that I won't like. A lot of great melodeon players stick to  "conventional" tremelo settings. I'm sure they're all not ignorant.  My experience is that things are rarely absolute.

My current Viennese-tuned instruments are 2-voice Hohners in D/G and C/F. To carry out the sort of recording tests you are asking for (and they would need to be made in well-controlled conditions to make worthwhile comparisons) I would need to obtain duplicate instruments of the same make/model and non-Viennese tuned with the same amount of tremolo. It's not going to happen any time soon.

I don't think I have any more useful contributions to make, sorry.
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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #92 on: July 31, 2018, 07:32:09 PM »

Just a quick postscript to my last - if you want to hear a really good quality, professional recording of a Viennese-tuned box, I recommend obtaining a copy of Brian Peters' CD "Squeezebox Voicebox" and listening to the track 'Swansea Town' which features a Hohner Club II box which I tuned for Brian a couple of years ago. You can hear how the melodeon RH side (including RH harmonies) is nicely in tune with itself and the LH basses and chords.
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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #93 on: July 31, 2018, 08:49:52 PM »

I'm not saying it's not good. I'm sure it's marvelous, but it doesn't seem to be universally adopted. . I just think it would be interesting to hear it and that seems to be unlikely. Otherwise discussion is pretty meaningless. Just words.

You are talking about "two instruments in tune with each other" vs "two instruments not in tune with each other". I think the concept is well enough understood not to need an elaborate demonstration, though with lower levels of tremolo the discrepancy may need sharp ears to detect the difference.

You do raise a good point though, which is: why doesn't everyone do it?
  • "We've always done it that way" a.k.a. "it's traditional", or "nobody's complained yet"
  • Allegedly, some players actually prefer their instrument to be slightly sharp because it makes their instrument "stand out" when playing with others.
  • On MM or LMM boxes with switches that can select a single reed bank you want that one in tune
  • Similarly, on LMM boxes than can select an LM combination, you want that to be a clean octave (as discussed above in this thread)
  • It used to be much easier to do, especially with older tuning aids that only gave you A=440 concert pitch, so you set the M0 reeds to that and then adjusted the M+ reeds for desired beats. Modern electronic tuners make Viennese tuning a lot easier.
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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #94 on: July 31, 2018, 09:04:16 PM »

Just out of interest, does anyone have any idea how many people do use dedic? Do people use both? I'm not talking exact numbers, just educated guesses wrt your neighbourhoods..
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Greg Smith
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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #95 on: July 31, 2018, 09:22:02 PM »

I can tell you that in my tuning work it is the exception for customers to request Viennese tuning.
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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #96 on: July 31, 2018, 09:26:01 PM »

Here's a video I posted this morning of my recently fettled Liliput in Bb Eb - Dedic tuned to -5 +5 by Martyn White.

I play a tune (Stoney Steps Hornpipe at 9:24) and go through both sides of the instrument.  This might be of interest to those who have contributed to this thread.  Photos of Martyn's work near the end at 11.00.

https://youtu.be/_JyPFfJRkRU

Les

Good video Les, I enjoyed it a lot. Lovely little box, I have a similar, brownish celluloid with red piping Liliput, once C/F but now D/G 'G' scale with no thirds in the chords and the treble in M0/M+ rather than Dedic/Viennese. I'm impressed with the sweetness of tone from your box and I'm now tempted to send my Bb/Eb 'circles grille' Liliput off to have it retuned even though it doesn't need it!
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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #97 on: July 31, 2018, 10:31:02 PM »

I can tell you that in my tuning work it is the exception for customers to request Viennese tuning.

Maybe they've never heard of it, or do you offer it and explain if necessary, and they still say no?

I asked Martyn White to do my Dino Baffetti in Viennese and he said he does it by default anyway (I guess only on an MM box without stops, or LMM with only L stop). He also pointed out that with a slow swing tremolo it hardly made any difference. I suppose at only about 2Hz off pitch you can't really tell whether it's sharp or flat.
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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #98 on: July 31, 2018, 10:44:39 PM »

I can tell you that in my tuning work it is the exception for customers to request Viennese tuning.

Maybe they've never heard of it, or do you offer it and explain if necessary, and they still say no?
I do discuss tuning options, sometimes at great length and after that some will select Viennese, but I don't push any particular system.  I believe it is the players prerogative to choose a tuning that they want which is often different from my preference for my own instruments.

Quote
I asked Martyn White to do my Dino Baffetti in Viennese and he said he does it by default anyway (I guess only on an MM box without stops, or LMM with only L stop). He also pointed out that with a slow swing tremolo it hardly made any difference. I suppose at only about 2Hz off pitch you can't really tell whether it's sharp or flat.

With a slow swing (as I understand that term) it's even less than that.  1Hz offset or less.  Quite a high proportion of my customers want that sort of minimal swing, so that obviously reduced the potential value of Viennese tuning.

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Re: Dedic tuning and wetness
« Reply #99 on: July 31, 2018, 11:49:51 PM »

Well, I mean, the thing is we're not looking for someone to like, play a tune, or ostensibly detune an entire instrument just to please our whims. We're just talking about a couple of reeds plates presumably, or a comparison of before/after retuning an instrument. Like, look at what my goals were with modifying the tone from dia.to: just a single example that shows why you might have a 'problem', what it would sound like without that 'problem'. Like, ideally it would be best if it could be simulated in some way, it's just a case of getting to that point. Maybe more can be done with this, I'm certainly willing to try.

I'm not someone who intends to own a lot of instruments, or feels up to tuning my own reeds, I also don't drive but I also really don't want to post anything, and maybe I've never had a problem with an instrument so have no dialogue with a fettler (turns out I personally have, but, I easily could have not). So, right now, if I go to the any dealer or shop in the UK, and look to buy a new instrument, perhaps a nice new Castagnari Tommy for a cool 2 or 3 grand because I just adore it. I know it's going to be L M0 M+, and I have to wonder, just how long will it be before the skilled musicians look down their noses at me and say, "you know, that instrument of yours is out of tune with itself". So... maybe I shouldn't buy it, or perhaps I should ask the dealer to have it retuned as Viennese, but, they've never heard of that and now I have to try and explain it and so on...

If you can only read comments and anecdotes from this forum, you just won't get a whole picture. I've been in this game for a couple of years now and I can tell you, I've read and thought about Viennese tuning, why it's good, and I've worried about if I should send an instrument off to have it done so I can find the true musical purity hidden within it. I've ultimately concluded that that was silly, but, I still thought about it, and clearly, still do. I'd say half the reason we get questions about this every so often is people just like me coming along, trying to find tangible guidance or qualified information, or examples that can demonstrate to basically anyone why they might or might not want/need this, and mostly encountering matter-of-fact statements and anecdotes about how good it is. After a while, that's going to make people with a low confidence in their understanding of what's going on feel like maybe they need it.

I can tell you that, if I sent an instrument away to have it dedic tuned based on some of the posts that I'd read, with a 4hz tremolo, and my instrument had a low G scale, and the low G note came back sounding like this (the G3 Dedic simulation I made), I would feel like I had maybe made a mistake. I mean, don't get me wrong a) maybe it wouldn't actually sound like that, and b) if it was m0 m+, that m+ would have to be like 35 cents sharp, but, I didn't really realise what 4hz tremolo on a low note like that might sound like until I worked it out for this thread. I mean, we're saying that's a note a fiddle player would ecstatically tune his G string to? I just wouldn't have truly appreciated what I was asking for if I'd sent my box away and made that request.

I can say though that, what I have learnt, through playing around with this for this thread, and ultimately in addition to the comments that it has drawn out from people, is that: because I'm finding my tastes lean in the direction of a very light tremolo, I myself literally cannot tell the difference even with a reference tone with the attempts I made at simulating it, I'm 99% sure it just doesn't matter to me right now and there's no need to fight for it or pursue it with any vigor. If my instrument needs tuning some day, yeah, I'd totally do it then, but, no need to rush.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 12:16:30 AM by Gena Crisman »
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