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Author Topic: Layout Redundancy and Breaking the Pattern  (Read 1823 times)

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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Layout Redundancy and Breaking the Pattern
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2018, 07:08:10 PM »

For myself, this interests me for a few reasons.

1. I like pokerworks and their ilk and the way they play. I've never played anything else quite like them.
2. I'm not broke, but I am on a budget (defintitely, as far as my wife is concerned) and retuning my existing box has financial advantages over buying a new, expensive one.
3. Hey (and this is the real reason), There is no such thing as the perfect layout, but optimising layouts to try and get the best one for me is a fun activity.

All I need to do now is take up fettling my own boxes. I need to learn to tune. I reckon I can have a good go at the rest of it.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Layout Redundancy and Breaking the Pattern
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2018, 11:27:15 AM »

I play a modified C#/D/G and it's great, ie I play it in the Bb/Eb session,  though that’s mostly chording. I sing in Bb quite a lot.

The base system duplicates pull C# and F# so I've filed the outside ones to play pull D and F respectively. It's then virtually chromatic  (:) on pull, albeit the notes can be in odd places. My sig below is actually a subtle reference to this 😀  In essence I’ve made it Accs/DG, it no longer plays in C#/D mode

Over the years I’ve thought pretty long and hard on diatonic systems.  Dutch reversal is the most logical, but only for young fingers. My summer trying  with the D/E plate flipped over … saw many familiar tunes crash painfully  :o Club system … similar benefits and  much more forgiving. In particular Club offers very easy chord extensions in the main row keys. Bm7, Dmaj7 etc

What accs system?  They all work in their way. Your choice depends (as ever) on “what you play”. I like blues, and so will commonly flatten a note - that was what drew me to a nicely priced C#DG as a basis. All those C# row notes are a semitone flat of D … just move a finger!

Should you be musically closer to the Forth delta than Mississippi's … A is now a big key? “Accidentally” that works for me too! As I’ve kept the push Ab  the only awkward note playing A "on the push" is D … easy accessed as a “button rock” low end, or a files up C# plate mid range and treble.

Don’t ever forget the 7 modes of the main keys. eg I mostly use my Ab as a G#, when playing in B! It gives me the characterisic #6 note of Dorian minor, as opposed to aolian/natural minor. I use my push F to … lovely jazzy/balkan dorian #4 scale … or just as a passing note singing in B dorian. Your voice may be another consideration?

IMHO any diatonic based accs row tends to work  best if it is "as different as possible" as the main rows. A C# base truly achieves this. It is 1 semitone away from D and 3 tone "devils interval" tritone away from G  >:E

That was my journey. I like C#*D/G so much that I’ve replicated it on an F#*G/C, but frankly you don’t need both

2p'th Chris
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Layout Redundancy and Breaking the Pattern
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2018, 07:52:34 PM »

As an update to my disabled Low D saga:

I was out playing today, probably 4th time playing out. We did a quite a few tunes I hadn't played in a while, like Vandals of Hammerwich and Bobby Shaftoe, as we were running some Longsword Workshops. These tunes saw me trying to push the button fairly frequently until I feel I mostly corrected for it, so, probably 20-30 minutes. It seems pretty clear to me at the moment that I used this D fairly frequently when a tune doesn't feature the low E, and I suppose that isn't exactly a revelation.

The change seems to be progressing OK so far, so unless much else changes I suspect its days are numbered and will some day become another note. It does legitimately pretty weird though, especially going from inside pull F# to outside row push D.
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richard.fleming

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Re: Layout Redundancy and Breaking the Pattern
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2018, 06:15:25 AM »

Would any of these issues arise if Gina played a semitone-apart box? I suspect not.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Layout Redundancy and Breaking the Pattern
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2018, 07:54:15 AM »

Would any of these issues arise if Gina played a semitone-apart box? I suspect not.

But you might as well ask 'would any of these issues arise if Gena played a piano accordion, or fiddle or a flute?' And the answer is of course 'no'. The semitone-apart box is an entirely different instrument from the 4th-apart box. Each have their own inherent strengths and lend themselves to particular styles of playing. I guess Gena has chosen the 4th-apart box because of the types of music she plays.
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Layout Redundancy and Breaking the Pattern
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2018, 02:51:26 AM »

Another almost 4 or so weeks later update:

Still rocking the disabled G row D button. I do find myself pushing the disabled button from time to time still in tunes from my already developed repertoire of tunes I play frequently but usually not ones I'd play on my own for fun, and it is never a factor in anything new I'm learning. It's kinda like trying to open the door the wrong way when you enter a building but only the first time each week. Where as, some tunes that I haven't played in a long time but I have had to pick up again, eg, Bobby Shafto, that would normally see me using that instance of the D button have come back and aren't causing any of the same confusion.

Still not really feeling any urge to un-disable it, honestly? I'm still only at the point of "If I have someone who knows their stuff look at the instrument I'll ask for the plates to be changed out" though, rather than desperately pursuing it for this instrument, but based on advice posted some time ago here it ought be a relatively inexpensive job to have the plates swapped out, sooo maybe that will be sooner rather than later. I'll just need to come up with some kind of clever aftermarket 3rds stop to make it really worth while on my older Black Pearl 2.
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Layout Redundancy and Breaking the Pattern
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2018, 09:37:57 PM »

OK, so, I have taken the plunge, and now have a low F of my DG melodeon. F4/F#4 reed plates are, it turns out, seemingly quite easy to obtain because they are part of the C# row of C#/D or B/C/C# instruments.

However, it's been like a week now, and I kinda have no specific idea on what to do with it. It doesn't get in the way, though.

Things I've found so far:
Because I have my regular accidentals 'reversed', so, my F5 is a draw note, my G# is also a draw note and thus Bb is a press note. Bb + F + D = a pretty nice right hand Bb major chord!
F4 + push A3 is also pretty pleasing, add a C bass and you have something resembling an F chord.

Knowing this has encouraged me to work on an arrangement of Por Una Cabeza in D major/minor, as it turns out it really really wants a Bb chord. I... actually thought I'd needed the low F to play it at all but I was entirely mistaken, but the chord progression the B part of the music would have been entirely unsatisfying without gratuitous RHS chords.

Anyway I should figure out chords for William Taylors in Am, too, and I met a fiddle player at bridport who shared a tune (Peace and Plenty in Dm) with me that that I swore I'd learn, so, I'd best get on top of that, too.
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playandteach

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Re: Layout Redundancy and Breaking the Pattern
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2018, 11:47:56 PM »

Gena
I'm not playing much at the moment, and not at all on the DG box I have. If you want to borrow it for a while, it has full Dutch reversals - in all octaves. Just seemed the right choice for me when I started playing.
The left hand is standard. It's an older Castagnari Sander, 3 voice - which I appreciate is a weight gain.
The all octave thing means that I can play 6ths, 3rds and octaves in a logical way. Bearing in mind that my main box is GC, so the top end gets used all the time. Same when I play those tunes on a 3 voice DG.
Here's a link to it on 2 voice

and on 3 voice
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 12:16:52 AM by playandteach »
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Layout Redundancy and Breaking the Pattern
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2018, 10:50:07 PM »

I'm not playing much at the moment, and not at all on the DG box I have. If you want to borrow it for a while, it has full Dutch reversals - in all octaves. Just seemed the right choice for me when I started playing.
The left hand is standard. It's an older Castagnari Sander, 3 voice - which I appreciate is a weight gain.
The all octave thing means that I can play 6ths, 3rds and octaves in a logical way. Bearing in mind that my main box is GC, so the top end gets used all the time. Same when I play those tunes on a 3 voice DG.

That's a very interesting offer, playandteach (sorry for addressing you by your handle, I'm not sure I know your meat space name). Honestly 3 voice is my kinda my jam, but the logistics and reality of borrowing an instrument from someone a fair distance away are quite terrifying!

I actually have always been pretty fascinated by the strange & clearly outlandish layout of instrument, and your creativity to back it. Honestly I'd be quite interested to see a diagram of/talk about the layout you use.
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playandteach

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Re: Layout Redundancy and Breaking the Pattern
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2018, 11:53:47 AM »

It's Pete, as is becoming known here anyway.
Where abouts are you based? Although I'm in Hexham, I do have family around elsewhere. I have an ex professional's approach to instruments, being tools of the trade, so although I wouldn't lend one to just anybody, if one is on loan and something happens to it, I'm fairly relaxed. As long as the intention is to take care, then stuff happens. It is also bearing the odd scar or two already (which again as someone who played something else for a living, didn't bother me, playability and function over cosmetics every time).
I'm away from home at the moment, so can't tell you the exact layout yet.
I'll do it when I'm home, but do feel free to have a borrow. No rush to return either - say up to 6 months. Your contributions here make it a safe bet.
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Serafini R2D2 GC, Castagnari Sander DG
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