Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Getting to the next level of (in)competence  (Read 9484 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Tone Dumb Greg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2312
  • DG Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, CF Hohner, 1040C
    • Dartmoor Border Morris
Re: Getting to the next level of (in)competence
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2018, 11:45:45 PM »

I am astounded by how much of what has been said here resonates with my experience.

From Gena's playing around with analysing abc of tunes,  to work out how I'm going to play them, to having a "tunes to learn" folder, like Q, via the
forgetting one tune to make room for another and all the rest of it, I do it all.

I actually have tunes in a number of folders:

1. Melodeon.net TOTM. I have learned to play all of them for the past 3 years, or so. I can actually play about 8, now.
2. Tune Library. Pretty much every tune I have ever been interested in Probably about 600
[Edit, actually, doesn't include loads of tunes, never got round to putting them in that folder.].
3. Tunes Practice List . What it says. About 350 tunes. Trouble is, I don't.
4. Tunes To Learn. About 250 tunes.
5. Morris. A lot of tunes I can (mostly) play, and a load I've never got round to. No idea how many.

I've stopped fretting about it. Putting my effort into playing by ear, instead.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned, directly,  is that relearning a forgotten tune can be just as hard as learning a tune from scratch.

Am I on a learning plateau. Erm, I think so.
Logged
Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
It is empty, but lacks nothing.
The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
Lao Tzu

Eshed

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 323
Re: Getting to the next level of (in)competence
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2018, 12:13:58 AM »

I'm probably a few years behind everyone here in playing, so this may not be entirely relevant.
For the past 2-3 months I've focused mostly on 2 tunes (first one, then the other), barely spending time practicing anything else. I do noodle quite a bit, which is very enjoyable but I doubt whether it helps me improve. In both tunes I've had specific goals that I focused on.
The first was Oakleigh, which I used mostly to practice steady rhythm (still not entirely there, but it's getting better) and fast-ish runs.
The second (that I'm still working on) is Road to Poynton, where I'm focusing on right hand chords and harmonics.

The interesting thing is that during this period I've noticed my ability to learn new simple tunes significantly improved. Relearning tunes I forgot, however, is for some reason excruciatingly difficult.
Another thing is that whenever I record myself (even not for uploading) I find more things that need fixing; this really helps with prioritising.
Logged
I'm playing all the wrong notes but not necessarily in the wrong order.

Thrupenny Bit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4811
  • happily squeezing away in Devon
Re: Getting to the next level of (in)competence
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2018, 08:09:07 AM »

Thanks Malcolm, glad it's not just me that find Teflon tunes.

George: yes, I've experienced jack in the box tunes that appear from the subconscious.
With this ability, and also to learn/process a tune despite you not actively practicing it, I find it all goes to prove that the brain is quite an amazing thing.

Going back to Dick's ' one word' I think mine should be "discipline".
I need to improve my discipline to focus on the problem bits of tunes rather than have a quick go, then head off and just play some tunes.
Q
The Undisciplined!
Logged
Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Julian S

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 670
  • D/G Pastourelle 2, Dony, Pokerwork, G/C Pariselle
Re: Getting to the next level of (in)competence
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2018, 08:44:51 AM »

Reviewing the discussion so far I realise I could easily quite Greg's last posting in entirety and say 'me too'. Apart from the fact that I have no idea on numbers of tunes (other than the very simple list of ones I play every week for Morris - no practice needed- and the band list - mostly ok apart from new ones and those that need polishing after last gig). And as for all the tunes I'd like to learn - certainly hundreds - I should have given up work years ago if I'm to have any chance!

Talking to one or two top players I have realised that the big difference - if you ignore native talent - is the ability to focus and concentrate. Learning the dots is one thing - which might include spending a lot of time on specific passages, but really working out how to play it in performance is so much more. Having a goal - which is performing (dance, concert, tune of the month, session - whatever) is bound to help. For many of the tunes I'm learning, I don't have that goal and just playing for the fun of it means I simply don't work hard enough. Perhaps I should record myself more to add pressure ! And I take on board Eshed's comments and approach - Oakleigh rings a bell btw but I can't bring it to mind - dots or recordings anyone ? Damn, distracted yet again !

I like the concept of saturation listening until the tune is embedded, and very much agree with George about the benefit of putting down tunes and revisiting - I've also found that applies to listening to recordings.

Picking up Winston's comment - yep - I too play for sheer pleasure. And I'd give up if it ever wasn't so. But most of the tunes I play are dance tunes - whether Morris, Ceilidh, French, Breton - and for me using the tunes for their purpose is wonderful in itself - and is also a great learning experience.

If I practice a French mazurka I occasionally check that I can actually mazurk to it...and if only I could master the five time waltz I'm sure I would be able to play them better !

J

Logged
Old Bones Dance Band, Blists Hill Morris Gang

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4858
Re: Getting to the next level of (in)competence
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2018, 08:54:34 AM »

just a couple of random thoughts on 'learning new tunes'. 

1. First learn to play the box! small number of relatively simple tunes ,preferably that you can hum   whistle,  Concentrate on  getting the hang of the basics of good music  -timing,  phrasing, dynamics and rhythm,  Stick with these tunes until they sound realy good and can be played withut conscious thought,


2.  ' practice fine bellows control  eg keeping bellwos tight so fast series of ins and outs can be played without effort or mushiness.


3. practice  lightly and precisely tapping both bass and treble buttons. (its easy to hold them down for longer if a genuine long note or chord is required,


3.  avoid tune hopping  i.e I can play that one ( when perhaps you can only play the right notes in the right order) so I must learn another (so that I can play the right notes in the right order!!)   


4. incorporate a veriety of types of tune  eg reels, marches, hornpipes,  waltzes, slow airs  laments  as so doing adds enormously to playing skills.


5. Follow your instinct - if you can 'feel' a tune coming down your arm and wanting to get out have a go at it   - you may only play a couple of bars of it  but its all your own work and can perhaps be developed

6. dont set aside practice times ( that can get put off if something else needs doing) just keep the box handy and pick it up for a few minutes ( which may turn into an hour)eg while  you are waiting for the kettle to boil

7. dont try to run before you can walk so to speak!
george >:E :||: :|||: ;)
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".    Available on ebay as a 'buy now' item. Put in melodeon tutor book for full info.  Melodeon DG & BC and piano accordion tuition

Thrupenny Bit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4811
  • happily squeezing away in Devon
Re: Getting to the next level of (in)competence
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2018, 09:04:03 AM »

After thinking about my one word - "discipline" I've thought that
1. I mustn't speed in a built up area ( difficult bits )
2. I should use cruise control to limit speed ( metronome )
3. Make journeys either to a single destination ( play tune ) or a circular tour ( return to the tune later )
4. Ignore deviations ( keep on the tune and don't ping off on others )

.... Then eventually I'll be an advanced driver ...errr, player.
Possibly  (:)

I too am relieved that my mistakes and lack of discipline seem to be a common thing. At least it's not just me, and yes maybe these undisciplined moments are where the fun creeps in.
....and we need fun. Without it playing becomes a drag and that's when the melodeon gets put in its box and the tv turned on.
Q
Logged
Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4858
Re: Getting to the next level of (in)competence
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2018, 11:44:47 AM »

I too am relieved that my mistakes and lack of discipline seem to be a common thing. At least it's not just me, and yes maybe these undisciplined moments are where the fun creeps in.
....and we need fun. Without it playing becomes a drag and that's when the melodeon gets put in its box and the tv turned on.
Q

Absolutely!  .  I can't see any reason for or point in playing the box if its not 'fun'


george ;D
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".    Available on ebay as a 'buy now' item. Put in melodeon tutor book for full info.  Melodeon DG & BC and piano accordion tuition

nigelr

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 361
Re: Getting to the next level of (in)competence
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2018, 01:32:07 PM »

Approaching this question from a different angle, my “problem” is that because I play for two Morris sides and I have limited practice time, I have to concentrate on perfecting the tunes I play for Morris so rarely have time to work on new tunes unless needed for a new dance. The plus side of this is that I get lots of practice at playing this limited repertoire.
Definitely an issue for me as well - my repertoire is pretty woeful having spent so long concentrating on a smaller number of quite complex tunes played in a specific style.  I need to broaden my horizons but there are only so many hours in the day.
Logged
Customs & Exiles | Theale Tattoo | A couple of Dinos (D/G), a Dony (D/G/Acc) and an Erika (Bb/Eb)

Lester

  • MADman
  • Mods and volunteers
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7974
  • Hohners'R'me
    • Lester's Melodeon Emporium and Tune-a-Rama
Re: Getting to the next level of (in)competence
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2018, 03:17:46 PM »

I mustn't speed in a built up area ( difficult bits )

This made me smile, probably the thing I bring up most at the slow and steady I run locally.

Thrupenny Bit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4811
  • happily squeezing away in Devon
Re: Getting to the next level of (in)competence
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2018, 04:27:11 PM »

Glad it hit the spot Lester  (:)
At the recent DG Weekend at Halsway, Andy Cutting was mentioning it a lot. A
All the tutors agreed they had to consciously keep steady over the tricky bits and I think we all found it reassuring that even vastly experienced players suffer the same problems as us mere mortals.

His other similar themed tip was to slow down in sessions, people play too fast. Something I wish I could instill in my regular sesh
Q
Logged
Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Calum

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24
Re: Getting to the next level of (in)competence
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2018, 05:01:55 PM »

The one thing I get my students to do when they're starting to think about improving practice efficiency is to keep a notebook, and at the end of each practice session, write down three things they need to practice next time.  At the beginning of a practice session - yep, do those three things.  Rinse and repeat. 

For example, my fiddle notebook has these three items from today's practice:

- continue practicing 3rd position scales against drones
- Work on treble playing in Johnny Finlay
- Work through bowing patterns of Sleep Sound Ida Mornin

Nothing exactly revelatory, and one of those items has stayed the same for a while, but if I didn't write them down, there's a fair chance I'd do one or none of them. 
Logged

Thrupenny Bit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4811
  • happily squeezing away in Devon
Re: Getting to the next level of (in)competence
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2018, 05:36:02 PM »

well, it'll keep you on track..... that's a good little tip!
cheers
Q
Logged
Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Eshed

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 323
Re: Getting to the next level of (in)competence
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2018, 07:51:33 PM »

And I take on board Eshed's comments and approach - Oakleigh rings a bell btw but I can't bring it to mind - dots or recordings anyone ? Damn, distracted yet again !
Sorry for distracting  ;)  Just don't play it now and save it for later!  :||:
No dots, but it's a bonus track on Leveret's Inventions. There's one recording that I've found on youtube here https://youtu.be/HT47Vu-8G0I?t=695 starting 13:37 or so.
Logged
I'm playing all the wrong notes but not necessarily in the wrong order.

Dick Rees

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 366
Re: Getting to the next level of (in)competence
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2018, 09:35:02 PM »


Going back to Dick's ' one word' I think mine should be "discipline".


Disciplined listening perhaps...
Logged
It's the carpenter, not the hammer...and a poor workman who blames his tools.

vof

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 197
Leveret - The Piggery/Oakleigh
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2018, 10:32:43 PM »

And I take on board Eshed's comments and approach - Oakleigh rings a bell btw but I can't bring it to mind - dots or recordings anyone ? Damn, distracted yet again !
Sorry for distracting  ;)  Just don't play it now and save it for later!  :||:
No dots, but it's a bonus track on Leveret's Inventions. There's one recording that I've found on youtube here https://youtu.be/HT47Vu-8G0I?t=695 starting 13:37 or so.
Bonus track apparently only available via MP3 and streaming. Not on the CD - at least not on mine  :(
Logged
Vince O'Farrell
Hohners: Pokerwork D/G (fettled by Theo; 4th button start, Viennese tuning, and thirds stop by Mike Rowbotham); red Erica G/C; 1040G project box.

Julian S

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 670
  • D/G Pastourelle 2, Dony, Pokerwork, G/C Pariselle
Re: Getting to the next level of (in)competence
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2018, 08:56:50 AM »

And I take on board Eshed's comments and approach - Oakleigh rings a bell btw but I can't bring it to mind - dots or recordings anyone ? Damn, distracted yet again !
Sorry for distracting  ;)  Just don't play it now and save it for later!  :||:
No dots, but it's a bonus track on Leveret's Inventions. There's one recording that I've found on youtube here https://youtu.be/HT47Vu-8G0I?t=695 starting 13:37 or so.


Yep - that's the tune ! Many thanks. I have a recording of Andy playing it last year but wasn't certain of the title. I presume he wrote it.
On the topic, I think writing a few comments and aide memoires after playing is a really good idea and one I shall implement immediately
J
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 10:44:49 AM by Julian S »
Logged
Old Bones Dance Band, Blists Hill Morris Gang

Tone Dumb Greg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2312
  • DG Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, CF Hohner, 1040C
    • Dartmoor Border Morris
Re: Getting to the next level of (in)competence
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2018, 09:48:33 AM »

I have a recording of Andy playing it last year but wasn't certain of the title. I presume he wrote it.
On the topic, I think writing a few comments and aide memoires after playing us a really good idea and one I shall implement immediately
J

I am pretty certain Andy wrote Oakleigh. I know I've seen him credited for  it somewhere, but I can't remember where.
Logged
Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
It is empty, but lacks nothing.
The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
Lao Tzu

Lyra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 549
Re: Getting to the next level of (in)competence
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2018, 11:34:25 PM »

Yes, Andy wrote it. I have the dots. In the interests of not further defocusing this thread I'm not posting them but if you want them, PM me. When you've done the practice you were supposed to be doing.
Logged

Julian S

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 670
  • D/G Pastourelle 2, Dony, Pokerwork, G/C Pariselle
Re: Getting to the next level of (in)competence
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2018, 07:38:29 AM »

Managed to cut a finger quite badly yesterday (just in time for Shrews Fest -grrr) so restricted playing for a while, and right hand only. :'( On the positive side I think I will attempt to sort out the tune lists, taking a leaf out of Q's book. That should occupy a few days...
And thanks Lyra -will PM

J


Logged
Old Bones Dance Band, Blists Hill Morris Gang

Thrupenny Bit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4811
  • happily squeezing away in Devon
Re: Getting to the next level of (in)competence
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2018, 08:00:53 AM »

Oh that's a b*gger Julian  :(
Hope it starts to knit together quickly enough to get a tune in at the festival.
Good luck organising the tune lists
Q
Logged
Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.