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Author Topic: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed  (Read 2298 times)

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Rog

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Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« on: August 27, 2018, 10:14:33 PM »

Well....this is played at breakneck speed..
https://youtu.be/USIfXp_at1E

mselic

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Re: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2018, 10:55:29 PM »

The speed at which Irish tunes are sometimes played has been a topic that has divided many on this forum...I, for one, like that these tunes can be given different treatments, and that includes being able to play a tune at whatever speed or cadence the moment inspires. It doesn’t necessarily always work, but that comes down to taste. It looks like a lively session, anyway!
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Rog

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Re: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2018, 11:25:39 PM »

Yes indeed. I’m just amazed they can play at that speed on a diatonic box. Maybe because they are playing semitone boxes it makes it a bit 'easier'...

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Re: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2018, 11:09:50 AM »

here's Sally Gardens played at about the same tempo by a ceili band for a reel step:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DB5xw7uN3Q
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george garside

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Re: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2018, 12:43:01 PM »

from both the sound and the glimpses of the players I would say definitely semitone boxes


george
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Gromit

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Re: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2018, 12:43:47 PM »

The second video is slower, I can keep up with it but struggle with the first.
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george garside

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Re: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2018, 01:01:04 PM »

sally gardens can be played fast on a DG box provided the bellows are kept really tight ? 6 to 10  inches maxim open  (depending on the box) and the bass are either ignored or used to add the odd note here and there rather than trying to drive a rhythm with the bass.

george
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Theo

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Re: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2018, 01:20:53 PM »

It’s not really fast,  it’s just a tune with a lot of notes! 
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george garside

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Re: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2018, 09:47:22 PM »

 but the notes have to be played faster 'cos there's lots of them to the bar

george
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Theo

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Re: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2018, 10:23:34 PM »

Of course, but the basic two beats to the bar pulse is not hugely fast. 
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Andrew Wigglesworth

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Re: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2018, 05:05:03 PM »

Around 134bpm, lively but hardly super-excessively so.

In answer to questions about how this can be done on diatonic boxes, I just played along with the set on my D/G box with no problems, saving the fact that I dislike the Concertina Reel (but why would they care) and that I don't play any of these tunes outside the rare times I join in with them at sessions.

Picking an impromptu video of one tune set like this, out of what is obviously an evenings session of friends playing together, for criticism seems to me to be a harsh thing to do.

I know it's not quite what you are doing and really I'm reacting more to the unpleasant comments on Youtube than anything here.

Anyway ... so what if they play a bit faster than you can cope with or particularly like? It's their night out and I bet there were a fair few different speeds to the tunes that they were enjoying together.

Have opinions by all means, express them, but really don't suppose that it means damn all to those who were playing that night, in the context they were playing and who they were playing with. It certainly wouldn't to me.

If they were playing for dancers (especially those paying for the pleasure) who were having difficulty dancing to the speed/rhythm, it's a fair comment and might teach something. If it's a band who are performing commercially, on stage etc, then it may be an indication whether you'd like to buy a ticket to see them, or buy a CD.

But for some bunch of friends in a pub playing (note the word) some tunes on an evening out, not meant for concerts, CDs or even videos on youtube ... so what?

Chris Ryall

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Re: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2018, 01:58:03 AM »

Speed, to me, is an option. A good counter example within the Tradition is Morpeth Rant (I'm in Morpeth!) which here is played at a blistering pace! I am advised that dancers like it that way 🤔 Yes, it freezes out beginners …

[:neigh:]
  Speeding up (to me) is much more dubious. It can lift some dance music,
  eg brandies, but applied as the only method of musical variation, and on
  every tune … becomes as much a cliche as Country & Western's frankly
  more traditional shift from G into A? 

   Speeding up is, with a few exceptions, to lose contact between traditional
   music and its underlying dance 😕 Is that a shame; or "so what"? 
   At its worst it becomes … a race 🙄
[/ :neigh:]

Gosh! That's two rants in a single post!! 😉
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 02:21:06 AM by Chris Ryall »
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Rog

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Re: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2018, 08:01:56 AM »

'Picking an impromptu video of one tune set like this, out of what is obviously an evenings session of friends playing together, for criticism seems to me to be a harsh thing to do.'
I was only referrring to the video, not the YT comments. In fact and personally I am rather admiring of the speed...
In our local (English) sessions if we set off on a moderately paced Irish tune we are 'accused' (its all good natured stuff) of 'going all Irish'. In fact the rhythm of Irish (for instance) reels is very different to the way an English reel is played. English players generally tend to knock it out as you see it on the page (which I find quite lumpen), all four square and sturdy, whereas (as a for instance in this vid) they play in multi bar phrases (black and decker black and decker black and decker deck..). And despite what everyone else is saying, these tunes are being played about as fast as they can be without losing definition. Faster and a different path through the melody will emerge. Well, that’s what I think.

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Re: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2018, 10:57:51 AM »

Anyway ... so what if they play a bit faster than you can cope with or particularly like? It's their night out and I bet there were a fair few different speeds to the tunes that they were enjoying together.

I quite agree Andrew but IMO they are going a bit faster than they could cope with. Particularly when they get past the Sally Gardens the phrasing of the tunes really begins to suffer, turning into a rather unpleasant mush. There are musicians who could keep the tunes from getting bent out of shape at that speed (remember the Damien Mullane party-piece video?), but not these lads it seems, or at least not when a bunch of boxes are playing together at that speed. But as you put it so well, it's their night out and nothing wrong with going mad for a bit of fun or a challenge.

george garside

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Re: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2018, 01:04:38 PM »

but it does bring to mind the old proverb 'never play faster than you can'

george
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Rog

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Re: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2018, 01:47:41 PM »

..and we’ve all set off into a piece or a set only to come up against a phrase that can’t be played or has to be fudged coz we're going too fast. The singing equivalent is starting off in the wrong key, to discover we don’t have the range to hit the top or the bottom.

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Re: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2018, 01:00:57 PM »

Anyway ... so what if they play a bit faster than you can cope with or particularly like? It's their night out and I bet there were a fair few different speeds to the tunes that they were enjoying together.

I quite agree Andrew but IMO they are going a bit faster than they could cope with. Particularly when they get past the Sally Gardens the phrasing of the tunes really begins to suffer, turning into a rather unpleasant mush. There are musicians who could keep the tunes from getting bent out of shape at that speed (remember the Damien Mullane party-piece video?), but not these lads it seems, or at least not when a bunch of boxes are playing together at that speed. But as you put it so well, it's their night out and nothing wrong with going mad for a bit of fun or a challenge.

I agree with you (and I bet many in the session did too), it took a while to recognise the later tunes, though the people there may have known them as a set. Probably it was some of the people dropping off the pace set by the "young buck", though I think it's also the audio recorder, most of which are capable of tuning even a perfectly intelligible session to a meaningless "unpleasant mush."

Sessions are all different in their particulars. A session is a social construct, one that delivers particular demands, but also imposes or negotiates compromises. Compromises that mean that the session can even exist. I've seen sessions where people who loathed (or would do their best to avoid) each other "in real life" sat down regularly in the same room to make music.

There are differing opinions on style, tunes etc., there are differing abilities and experience, but they come together because these are the people to make music with. You make the best of it, you compromise, you assert yourself, you follow others and sublimate yourself to the will of other musicians, then you assert yourself and you compromise ... then you realise you're enjoying yourself and want to come back again. That peculiar mixture of people, location, musical comfort and challenge (and frustration) alongside the sociability is what makes a session.

How people play is also a process, no-one is stationary or the completed musician. So, someone starts playing "too fast", they'll change, or the group/community will change. There have *always* been people who played too fast (or slow), even Edward Bunting commented (and here I paraphrase), that the Irish tended to play their dance tunes too fast and their airs too slowly.

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Re: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2018, 01:54:26 PM »

I do not expect to get up to this speed. But I would like one Irish Reel under my belt. Can anyone suggest an Irish reel that would fit reasonably well on a DG box ? Many thanks.
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Theo

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Re: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2018, 02:01:54 PM »

Far From Home is a nice easy one in G. 

ABC and notation here https://thesession.org/tunes/1164
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Jackaspandy

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Re: Sally Gardens etc ..at session speed
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2018, 02:13:21 PM »

Many thanks - will have a go at this
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