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[j.b.c.]

"Where to get those???"

Scrap piano accordions.

Yes, but I was wondering more about the difficulty of sourcing reedplates with intervals that don't occur on either the diatonic or PA.

Intervals like the tritone or b9.

[Theo]

If you learn the skills of reed tuning you can do quite a lot to tune a reed plate to have different pitches on push and pull.

[Pearse Rossa]

How do Klezmer players approach the diatonic accordion?

This is how Máirtín O' Connor approaches it on a DD# Hohner.
Two Jewish reels.

[rees]

I know absolutely nothing about what you would need a box to have to enable you to play Jazz on

Notes outside the major scale I feel I'm missing, maybe just because I'm an absolute newbie, in decreasing order of importance:

- the flatted 3, needed for minor
- the flatted 7, needed for dominant
- the flatted 5, needed for m7b5
- the flatted 6, needed for harmonic minor

I'm assuming your Club is in C/F. If you learn to play it in the key of G you will then have the flat 3 and flat 7 on the C and F rows.
This is the method used by Blues and Zydeco musicians.

[Gena Crisman]

For the sort of music you want to play, perhaps you might want to give the Chromatic Button Accordion (CBA) careful consideration. Plus points:

A huge appeal to the diatonic accordion is the expressive dynamics of the lightweight box.

Hello!

So, you may have to face a reality: in order to be lightweight & expressive, diatonic accordions simply have to be bad at something. You can decide what that something is, though. Forth apart boxes trade the powerful and useful chromatic nature of Semitone boxes in return for being able to have more chordal vocabulary to accompany themselves in the keys they do play in on both left and right hand sides. The 3 row layout you've posted leaves the left hand side completely out of the equation - the left hand side can be anything you want, but what do you want it to be? Consider Anglo Concertinas, which are also diatonic and bisonoric and have two keys a fourth or fifth apart. They split their notes across both left and right hand side, and tend to be significantly more chromatic than a 2 row 4th apart melodeon - they've traded our left hand side accompaniment for it, but, how interested are you in those chord buttons given you haven't mentioned them once in the thread so far? Maybe this could be a gateway to playing the sorts of thing you want to play without compromising things you care more about (weight)? Perhaps if you do want basses, would you find a unisonoric free bass system superior for your chosen music genres? In that case, do you still need reversals & a 3rd row? Speaking of 3rd rows, check out B/C/C#, too.

In the long run, I think it can work against you to think you know better than decades/centuries worth of experience with the instrument, but you also should definitely consider perhaps that system wasn't made for playing the kind of music you want to play. Sure, it's similar to what is found on harmonicas, but, you can bend reeds on a harmonica & just pick up one in another key whenever you want. The club system in particular has a goal as an addition - while it adds some chromatacism, a key element is to let you play another tick around the circle of fifths more easily (Bb major) with still only 8 bass buttons - a goal that is perhaps not in line with your objective. I'd still follow Rees' advice and look to how players have changed or used other existing diatonic instruments to play the kinds of music you want to, as well as try and work out what the players that others have linked are doing.

I think you also need to work out what you really need to be able to play. Do you want to play melody notes at the same time as one another to form chords? What kind of basses do you need to use in these Jazzier modes? Do you actually need the options that were there to begin with? Would it be easier if you used a different mode instead of Ionian as a base? Could you be served well by dropping to a single voice? If you can't draw a line somewhere then your ideal instrument will get bigger, and heavier.

[j.b.c.]

a key element is to let you play another tick around the circle of fifths more easily (Bb major) with still only 8 bass buttons

Indeed.  Noticing that the Bb scale was available in the left hand was a breakthrough moment.

If you can't draw a line somewhere then your ideal instrument will get bigger, and heavier.

The titanium bailing wire that holds my body together puts bigger and heavier out of the question.

I think that there is an optimization of the diatonic instrument by cleverly eliminating the replicated  scale tones, designing the keyboard around a 6-tone scale with 6 accidentals such that it occurs on a uniformly repeating 9-key field.

Choosing the ideal 6 tone scale and arranging the keyboard around those tones such that common scales and chords are available is a non-trivial exercise in combinatorics.  It is tricky to match a 6-tone/6-accidental scale with the 7-tone/5-accidental scale of western music.

More to follow.

[Steve_freereeder]

a key element is to let you play another tick around the circle of fifths more easily (Bb major) with still only 8 bass buttons

Indeed.  Noticing that the Bb scale was available in the left hand was a breakthrough moment.

If you can't draw a line somewhere then your ideal instrument will get bigger, and heavier.

The titanium bailing wire that holds my body together puts bigger and heavier out of the question.

I think that there is an optimization of the diatonic instrument by cleverly eliminating the replicated  scale tones, designing the keyboard around a 6-tone scale with 6 accidentals such that it occurs on a uniformly repeating 9-key field.

Choosing the ideal 6 tone scale and arranging the keyboard around those tones such that common scales and chords are available is a non-trivial exercise in combinatorics.  It is tricky to match a 6-tone/6-accidental scale with the 7-tone/5-accidental scale of western music.

More to follow.

It's possible that you could design and perhaps even build the instrument that you require, starting off with a C/F Club box. But based on what you have specified so far in this thread, it seems to me that the instrument you would end up with would be such a one-off and such a departure that you will have left the concept of 'melodeon' or 'diatonic accordion' as most people know it, far behind.

[george garside]

maybe a small lightweight  HOHNER 40 0r 48  bass piano accordion box would be better around 4.3 and 4.6kg  which is less than a 3 voice GCF hohner corona 3 voice 'melodeon' and about the same as the 2 voice version.

other makes and models of same size would probably be of fairly similar weight

george

'

[IanD]

How do Klezmer players approach the diatonic accordion?

This is how Máirtín O' Connor approaches it on a DD# Hohner.
Two Jewish reels.

I can pretty much guarantee the first one isn't Klezmer...

[Tone Dumb Greg]

Looking at your layout, the mixture of unisonoric and reversing notes looks clumsy to play. Sort of fish and fowl. I think it's possible, given you don't want to put too much mass into the box, that the direction you headed in is a "lightweight" three row CBA.
Using a standard 30 button club treble side you could create an instrument with at least 3 1/2 octaves. With a compromise you could have more. The issue would be with the basses which would  have to be unisonoric as well.
The standard club bass side only has 8 basses. If you could turn it into 12 you have the possibility for complete chromasticity of bass notes from which you could create bass chords if and when wanted.
I'll try and do a layout of what I mean.

It wouldn't be a melodeon, though.

[Tone Dumb Greg]

Or, alternatively, if you had two 21 button trebles on either end of the bellows you could make the accordion equivalent of an English concertina
Also not a melodeon.

[Chris Ryall]

Just to point out that any "diatonic" system, which incorporates all the virtues that Gina has expounded has to be based on main rows with intervals

    tonic … t t ½ t t t ½ :        where t=a whole musical tone,  ½=semitone

In C this is the piano white notes, but eg F# diatonic scale has exactly the same intervals and so sounds very similar to the ear. In terms of then being a "melodeon" there is also a pattern of push/pull involved, with notes repeating 4th position on push, 5th on pull. Yes, this throws a different play plattern in the upper octave.  Notes above and below these main octaves might vary with instrument, but are then still regarded as a diatonic system.

This is trivial for single row. The tone separation of 2 or 3 row kit is an option. "Standards" being a musical 4th passing inwards, or a semitone apart. I believe 4th facilitates chord based play, hence "ACCORDeon" from the French word. ½ tone apart systems allow very rapid scale based play, right hand chords are IMHO not so easy until a third row is present, eg a BCC# system.

Other separations do exist. I have a looked at 3-tone apart system, others at tone apart. 5th apart also exists, basically a 4th apart "outside in"!  Minor 3rd makes a bit of sense. Major 3rd does not as many notes are duplicated in same direction.

But the main rows have to be based on the intervals above. Otherwise not diationic?

The 4th system duplicates C+D reed plate on eg a C/G 2-row. The community accepts that turning one (inner) plate over to D/C "Dutch inversion" is still "diatonic". Technically it is, but offers a different push/pull pattern on the affected row. Club GC system has an inner G/G plate, another accepted exception.

The Grenoble system has an inner row with CDEFG#ABC = Tonic t t ½ t½ ½ t ½ intervals! (3rd mode of harmonic minor scale). This is accepted as a "diatonic" box in France. I suspect not in Britain?

In all these exceptions … the note(s) modified can be still reached on the close-by outer row.

"Accidentals" rows can vary widely. However main rows, with octaves 1&2 differing from these accepted patterns would make any instument non diationic. 

The best example is perhaps the two CBA systems: based on 3 rows in a t½ t½ t½ t½ t½ t½ … pattern, semitone apart. It is termed "chromatique" in France

[Pearse Rossa]

How do Klezmer players approach the diatonic accordion?

This is how Máirtín O' Connor approaches it on a DD# Hohner.
Two Jewish reels.

I can pretty much guarantee the first one isn't Klezmer...

I've heard the Chicago Klezmer Ensemble play it as a Klezmer number.
I can't find the recording right now.

[Steve_freereeder]

The best example is perhaps the two CBA systems: based on 3 rows in a T T T T T T pattern, semitone apart. It is termed "chromatique" in France

The buttons on the CBA systems are minor thirds apart, not tones.
C system
B system

[Chris Ryall]

corrected. 2 a.m slip, served me right 😉

[Gena Crisman]

Just to point out that any "diatonic" system, which incorporates all the virtues that Gina has expounded has to be based on main rows with intervals

    tonic … t t ½ t t t ½ :        where t=a whole musical tone,  ½=semitone

I'm not sure this is exactly true? I'm pretty sure you could have a diatonic system that had the notes from any mode, so, you could have the notes be eg a Mixolydian mode rather than the Ionian mode and it still be diatonic?

[j.b.c.]

the concept of 'melodeon' or 'diatonic accordion' as most people know

I'm not sure what the difference between the 'melodeon' and 'diatonic accordion' would be.

I took 'diatonic accordion' to be an instrument whose key-field has different tonality on the push vs. the draw.

If a B/C/C# instrument is a melodeon, then I suppose you could define 'melodeon' to be an instrument whose draw notes are chosen from the 2,4,6,7 scale tones and push notes are chosen from 1,3,5.

Instruments of B/C/C# type have a repeating field of 12 notes on the draw and 9 notes on the press.  More generally, you could reverse one of the rows for repeating fields of 11 and 10 notes.

I propose a layout of 9 repeating notes on the press and draw.  Maybe not a melodeon, but surely diatonic.

My current thinking so far:

Code: [Select]


repeating 9-button field
duplicated notes chosen from c-major without the 6th scale degree


              24                27                30                33
             ╔═════╦═════╦═════╦═════╦═════╦═════╦═════╦═════╦═════╦═════╗
 III-b5      ║  e  ║  a♭ ║  b♭ ║  e' ║  a♭'║ b♭' ║  e" ║  a♭"║ b♭" ║  e‴ ║
             ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║
 IV-dim      ║  f  ║  b  ║  c♯ ║  f' ║  b' ║ c♯' ║  f" ║  b" ║ c♯" ║  f‴ ║
          ╔══╩══╦══╩══╦══╩══╦══╩══╦══╩══╦══╩══╦══╩══╦══╩══╦══╩══╦══╩══╦══╩══╗
   ii     ║  d  ║  f  ║  a  ║  d' ║  f' ║  a' ║  d" ║  f" ║  a" ║  d‴ ║  f‴ ║
          ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║
   II     ║  d  ║  f♯ ║  a  ║  d' ║ f♯' ║  a' ║  d" ║ f♯" ║  a" ║  d‴ ║ f♯‴ ║
       ╔══╩══╦══╩══╦══╩══╦══╩══╦══╩══╦══╩══╦══╩══╦══╩══╦══╩══╦══╩══╦══╩══╦══╩══╗
   i   ║  c  ║  e♭ ║  g  ║  c' ║ e♭' ║  g' ║  c" ║ e♭" ║  g" ║  c  ║ e♭‴ ║  g‴ ║           
       ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║ ┄┄┄ ║
   I   ║  c  ║  e  ║  g  ║  c' ║  e' ║  g' ║  c" ║  e" ║  g" ║  c  ║  e‴ ║  g‴ ║
       ╚═════╩═════╩═════╩═════╩═════╩═════╩═════╩═════╩═════╩═════╩═════╩═════╝
        1                 4                 7                 10



This layout has the following properties:
- C, G, D major scales on the draw
- F, B♭ major scales on the push
- alternating major/minor triads for I and II on the first two rows.
- mostly easy to get reedplates.
- repeating scale shapes across octaves.

B/C/C# in comparison has no scales on the push because of the minor 3rd between g♯ and b.  It heavily favours the draw, having C♯, F♯, B, E, A.

I must say the B/C/C# seems very powerful, if unsymmetrical.  I wasn't aware of it, or dismissed it, before.

A better analysis requires a little combinatoric program to check different layouts against chording and scale possibilities.

Would like to hear the pros/cons of B/C/C# from players of that system.  It seems better than Club.

More later.

[Winston Smith]

Is there a 3 row Streb, where j.c.b. could programme his concept in to try?

[george garside]

the term 'diatonic' does not refer to 2 notes per button but simply that each row, be it 1,2,or 3 on a box each contains the scale for a particular key eg in the case of a DG you get the scales for D&G ! on a BCC# you get those 3 scales.

Semitone boxes eg BC, CC# etc are both diatonic and chromatic as the combination of rows provides the wherewithal to play in 12 major keys. In practical terms they are difficult to play in some keys and easy in others.  The 3 row BCC# is chromatic in a practical sense as all 12 keys are easy to play.

The 4th apart boxes eg DG,CF etc  are diatonic but not chromatic and the same goes for 3 row eg GCF.ADG etc. 

There is no such thing as 'a but chromatic' as an instrument either is chromatic ( 12 keys) or it isn't.

george ( in pedantic mode )

[george garside]

forgot to mention - if you want to look at some absolutely brilliant BCC# playing take a look at the many you tube vids by Brandon Mcphee. he plays a very wide range of stuff including country and western stuff on it
george