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Author Topic: club melodeon  (Read 2891 times)

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Reece Johnson

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club melodeon
« on: September 04, 2018, 08:28:56 PM »

hello i'd just like to ask about the club melodeon as really im all piano accordion but
I recently bought a cajun box and although I can't play it at the moment due to it needing
restoration work i'm looking forward to it.

anyway so my question is this:

what is possible on club melodeon? from my understanding its not the same as a
3 row but thats about as fart as I got.

cheers!
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Stiamh

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Re: club melodeon
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2018, 08:36:34 PM »

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Reece Johnson

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Re: club melodeon
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2018, 10:24:10 PM »

well I did look at that website however i'm not really sure as to what i'm reading.

I think a better way to put my question across is like this:

so with the helper buttons you have some extra notes
and so will change direction less unless you need another
chord.

does this mean I could play a bisonoric instrument for the same sort of songs
as I would play on an piano accordion.

eg. if I look at a piano and then play two white notes next to each other without
changing chords it seems impossible to do it. however if I got all the extra notes
would i be able to play thing like this.

I would love to play a bisonoric squeezebox with the same capabilities as a accordion.

cheers!
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Theo

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Re: club melodeon
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2018, 11:25:23 PM »

Simple answer is no.
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Eshed

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Re: club melodeon
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2018, 11:44:38 PM »

does this mean I could play a bisonoric instrument for the same sort of songs
as I would play on an piano accordion.
I've been playing the club melodeon for the past few months and I fear the answer is mostly no.
While you do have some chromatic capabilities, unlike the accordion, it is not always possible to match them with left-side harmony.
For instance, one note that is a main offender on my C/F box is C#. You'd often want to use it together with the A major chord, but the chord is on the push and all the C#s are on the pull. Reverse it and you will have the same problem with your Ebs!.

I would love to play a bisonoric squeezebox with the same capabilities as a accordion.
The melodeon is an instrument of compromises and the club is one as well, just different compromises.
Personally I like it a lot because it allows me to pick better sounding chords and because for some reason it was more intuitive for me.
Note that even when using the left hand, the chromaticity does have its moments every now and then. Others might know how it compares with other 2.x row boxes.
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I'm playing all the wrong notes but not necessarily in the wrong order.

Cam Button

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Re: club melodeon
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2018, 02:03:02 AM »

Thank you for the link Stiamh.
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Andrius

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Re: club melodeon
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2018, 08:44:04 AM »

[...]
I would love to play a bisonoric squeezebox with the same capabilities as a accordion.

2 row and clubs are far from it; 3 row like ADG has more possible sounds, main restriction is chords, few sounds missing.
May be 3 row like BCC# has all sounds in melody side (sadly I am not familiar with them).
It seems you need bandoneon, German or Argentinian system - all sounds both directions; more possibilities like on usual PA (no chords in left side, single sounds only). Bad side - learning takes lot of time.
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Re: club melodeon
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2018, 08:51:33 AM »

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george garside

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Re: club melodeon
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2018, 09:26:43 AM »

3 row but thats about as fart as I got.

cheers!


!! ;D
g
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george garside

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Re: club melodeon
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2018, 09:31:54 AM »

[...]
I

 May be 3 row like BCC# has all sounds in melody side (sadly I am not familiar with them).
 

The BCC# with stradella ( same as piano accordion) bass is very versatile but does have limitations , most of which can  circumvented with by a bit of faking.  eg it is absolutely impossible to play a G major chord on the right hand as you can't come and go at the same time!

george
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Sebastian

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Re: club melodeon
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2018, 10:49:08 AM »

Simple answer is no.
Right.

The main function of the buttons in the helper row is not to provide total chromaticity, but to enable playing in three related major keys, usually F C and Bb, together with the three main chords of these keys, much like a normal three-row accordion. Nevertheless, it does provide some additional chromatic (and melodic) possibilities over a normal three-row accordion.

Three years ago I wrote something like a "review" about Delaguerre: Gedanken zu einigen Eigenheiten des Club-Systems.

george garside

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Re: club melodeon
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2018, 11:38:06 AM »

the bottom line is that more rows = more reeds + more pallets + more mechanism + larger ( & heavier) casing and bellows and there is no way of avoiding this.

This is probably why many 2 row 4th apart players have 2 or 3 boxes  tuned  to different key so that between them they are heading towards chromasticity ( but really an instrument is  chromatic or it isn't)  There is also the question of bass. 3 different boxes  would each have appropriate bass to their treble end with not increase in playing weight ( but 3 times the weight to cart around!)


The semitone 2 row boxes are chromatic but not easy to play in some keys and are lacking in bass '


the 3 row semitone boxes are again chromatic  and easier than the 2 row to play  but  the only sensible bass is 'stradella' (piano acc bass) which altogether makes for a much heavier instrument.

It is for the above reasons that I play 1 row, 2 row  DG and 96 bass BCC#  which between them strike a good , to me , compromise between light weight anad half decent bass  for  ceilidh band work, sessions , morris etc. and the BCC#  for when I fancy or have a need to play with full bass in the keys that melodeonists rarely go'


And dare I say it  - for those requiring a box with everything the continental chromatic makes a lot of sense >:E  simple - just learn one scale and play in 12 keys!

george
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Sebastian

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Re: club melodeon
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2018, 11:39:18 AM »

All very true. Only one small note:

( but really an instrument is  chromatic or it isn't)
A two-row accordion with two accidental buttons on the low ends is chromatic over one octave but lacks accidentals in the upper (and the lower) octave. In addition to that, those accidentals exist either on push or on pull and can may not be playable together with the desired chord on the bass side. So it provides some chromatic possibilities but is not fully chromatic.

The smallest club layout (with 4 helper buttons) provides two additional accidentals for the top octave, bigger clubs provide more accidentals (and reversals).

Matthew B

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Re: club melodeon
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2018, 02:20:23 PM »

In previous discussions of club accordions several people have noted that the system has also been adapted to some Brazilian and Uruguayan gaita ponto instruments.  The Brazilian musician Renato Borghetti plays a variety of club tuned boxes, some turbo-charged with stradella basses, and some with a more traditional 8 bass set-up.  There are a variety of different RH configurations.  Some have helper rows, and some don't.  The gleichton is a common characteristic, as illustrated in this excellent (Portuguese language) documentary on Borghetti's efforts to build instruments and train young musicians https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1VM1J26CZo.  The club layout shows up at 4.56 on the video. 

I'm not sure why club boxes work so well for "gaucho music", but they do!
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j.b.c.

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Re: club melodeon
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2018, 07:41:02 PM »

All very true. Only one small note:

One single Eb (on the C/F)

There are three other singletons.  The Bb and D push tones, and the F# draw.

If you ignore the singletons this is what the harmonic analysis of the C/F Club looks like:

Code: [Select]
C/F Club without singletons
{0, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9}
   d [0, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11]
   p [0, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9]
   draw
     scales
       major  C D F G A
       minor  D F G A B
       harminor  D F F# A B
       superloc  C# E F# Ab Bb
     chords
        C# C#m C#+ C#- C#m- C#sus4 C#6 C#m6 C#maj7 C#mM7 C#7 C#m7 C#m7b5
        Ab+ Ab- Abm- Abm7b5
        Bb Bbm Bb+ Bb- Bbm- Bbsus2 Bb6 Bbm6 Bbmaj7 BbmM7 Bb7 Bbm7 Bbm7b5 Bbadd9 Bb9 Bb69
        F Fm F+ F- Fm- Fsus2 Fsus4 F6 Fm6 Fmaj7 FmM7 F9 F69
        C C+ C- Csus2 Csus4 C6 Cmaj7 C7 Cadd9 C9 C69
        G Gm G- Gm- Gsus2 Gsus4 G6 Gm6 Gmaj7 GmM7 G7 Gm7 Gm7b5 Gadd9 G9 G69
        D Dm D+ D- Dm- Dsus2 Dsus4 D6 Dm6 Dmaj7 DmM7 D7 Dm7 Dm7b5 Dadd9 D9 D69
        A Am A+ Asus2 Asus4 A6 Am6 Amaj7 AmM7 A7 Am7 Aadd9 A9 A69
        E Em E+ E- Em- Esus2 Esus4 E6 Em6 E7 Em7 Em7b5 Eadd9 E69
        Bm Bm- Bsus2 Bsus4 Bm6 BmM7 Bm7 Bm7b5
        F# F#m F#+ F#- F#m- F#sus2 F#sus4 F#maj7 F#mM7 F#7 F#m7 F#m7b5 F#add9 F#9
   push
     scales
     chords
        Eb- Ebm-
        F Fsus2 Fmaj7 F7 Fadd9 F9
        C Cm C- Cm- Csus4 C6 Cm6
        Am Am- Am6 Am7 Am7b5
        F#m- F#m7b5
   in push_and_draw
     chords
        F F9 Fmaj7 Fsus2
        C C- C6 Csus4
        Am Am6 Am7
        F#m- F#m7b5
   in push_or_draw
     chords
        C# C#+ C#- C#6 C#7 C#m C#m- C#m6 C#m7 C#m7b5 C#mM7 C#maj7 C#sus4
        Ab+ Ab- Abm- Abm7b5
        Eb- Ebm-
        Bb Bb+ Bb- Bb6 Bb69 Bb7 Bb9 Bbadd9 Bbm Bbm- Bbm6 Bbm7 Bbm7b5 BbmM7 Bbmaj7 Bbsus2
        F F+ F- F6 F69 F7 F9 Fadd9 Fm Fm- Fm6 FmM7 Fmaj7 Fsus2 Fsus4
        C C+ C- C6 C69 C7 C9 Cadd9 Cm Cm- Cm6 Cmaj7 Csus2 Csus4
        G G- G6 G69 G7 G9 Gadd9 Gm Gm- Gm6 Gm7 Gm7b5 GmM7 Gmaj7 Gsus2 Gsus4
        D D+ D- D6 D69 D7 D9 Dadd9 Dm Dm- Dm6 Dm7 Dm7b5 DmM7 Dmaj7 Dsus2 Dsus4
        A A+ A6 A69 A7 A9 Aadd9 Am Am- Am6 Am7 Am7b5 AmM7 Amaj7 Asus2 Asus4
        E E+ E- E6 E69 E7 Eadd9 Em Em- Em6 Em7 Em7b5 Esus2 Esus4
        Bm Bm- Bm6 Bm7 Bm7b5 BmM7 Bsus2 Bsus4
        F# F#+ F#- F#7 F#9 F#add9 F#m F#m- F#m7 F#m7b5 F#mM7 F#maj7 F#sus2 F#sus4
    simple triads
        C# C#m
        Bb Bbm
        F Fm
        C Cm
        G Gm
        D Dm
        A Am
        E Em
        Bm
        F# F#m
    13 chords shared from 149 chords total
    3  triads shared from 19 simple triads total in 149 chords.
C/F Club without singletons

Very biased towards the draw side, and not sharing many chords between push and draw.

Edit -- wireless keyboard neds batteries.

« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 07:47:11 PM by j.b.c. »
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Sebastian

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Re: club melodeon
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2018, 09:45:36 AM »

If you ignore the singletons this is what the harmonic analysis of the C/F Club looks like:
To understand a bisonoric accordion with diatonic rows on the right hand side, arranged in fifths, it is useful to look at the left hand side.

On an eight basses Club you have basses and chords for: C, Dm, Eb, F, G, A, Bb. (By combination you can play Gm and Am, too.)

Those chords provide the main functions for these major keys:

F major (tonic: F, dominant: C, subdominant: Bb),

C major (tonic: C, dominant: G, subdominant: F),

Bb major (tonic: Bb, dominant: F, subdominant: Eb).

The extended ten button bass layout adds the chords F7, C7, G7, which are just the three dominant seventh chords for the above mentioned three major keys.

The bass layout is designed to play in the keys of F, C and Bb. This corresponds to the normal ways of modulating into the dominant or the subdominant key. (F => C, F => Bb)

The core of the buttons in the helper row are the two buttons with the four halftones, which you find as first buttons on the rows in normal two-row melodeons. The button to the right and the button to the left of this core provide reversals needed to play i. a. in the key of Bb. Further helper buttons are more or less just repetitions in other octaves.

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Re: club melodeon
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2018, 07:46:10 AM »

The bass layout is designed to play in the keys of F, C and Bb. This corresponds to the normal ways of modulating into the dominant or the subdominant key. (F => C, F => Bb)


Its funny that the bass side has the Bb-major scale, rather than the F-major scale.

Why an Eb rather than an E?

Edit: adding ...

Also, why is the C doubled rather than the F?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 07:56:37 AM by j.b.c. »
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Sebastian

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Re: club melodeon
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2018, 02:10:33 PM »

The bass layout is designed to play in the keys of F, C and Bb. This corresponds to the normal ways of modulating into the dominant or the subdominant key. (F => C, F => Bb)

Its funny that the bass side has the Bb-major scale, rather than the F-major scale.

Why an Eb rather than an E?
The task of the bass side is to provide chords. Every chord comes with its fundamental note an octave lower (= bass), so that you can play bass - chord - chord.

To accompany a melodie with chords you need the three main chords of the respective tonality: tonic (= on the 1st step of the scale), dominant (= 5th step of the scale), subdominant (= 4th step of the scale).

In F major: F major chord (1st step), C major chord (5th step), Bb major (4th step)
In C major: C major chord (1st), G major chord (5th), F major  chord (4th)
In Bb major: Bb major chord (1st), F major chord (5th), Eb major chord (4th)

In these tonalities there is no E major or E minor chord, and therefore no E bass.

Quote
Also, why is the C doubled rather than the F?
This pertains to the design of the two-row accordions. It is due to a design problem in one-row accordions: The 5th note of the scale is harmonically ambiguous. Sometimes it demands to be accompanied by the tonic chord (= chord on the 1st note of the scale), sometimes by the dominant chord (= chord on the 5th note of the scale). On one-rows (and two-rows) this note exists only on the push. Therefore on one-row accordions it can only be accompanied by the push-chord (the tonic chord).

The two-row accordion adds an outer row one fifth above the original row, so that its tonic chord (push-chord) is on the 5th step of the original inner row. Therefore it can be 'mis-used' as the chord on the 5th note of the scale of the inner row and thus provides the missing dominant chord for this note in the inner row.

This bass layout is preserved in the bass layout of the Club accordion, so that two-row players could still use their usual bass fingering when 'upgrading' to a Club (although, strictly speaking, it wouldn't be necessary, because the discant layout of the Club provides reversals for this note in every octave).

The F chord is needed only on push (at least in the music, the accordion was designed for). Therefore there is no need for an F chord on pull.

Edit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1VM1J26CZo.  The club layout shows up at 4.56 on the video.
No, sorry, this is not the Club layout.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 02:34:27 PM by Sebastian »
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boxer

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Re: club melodeon
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2018, 07:53:13 PM »

diatonic boxes in the right hands can sometimes approach the kind of things a piano box or a continental button accordion can do.  Problem is, however complex the diatoninc box is, it can't do it as well as a PA or CBA.  If you want buttons, get a CBA.  If you want diatonic, get another repertoire.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: club melodeon
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2018, 07:58:36 PM »

diatonic boxes in the right hands can sometimes approach the kind of things a piano box or a continental button accordion can do.  Problem is, however complex the diatoninc box is, it can't do it as well as a PA or CBA.  If you want buttons, get a CBA.  If you want diatonic, get another repertoire.

I am forced to point out that, for all it's limitations, a diatonic box does what it does well a hell of a lot better than a CBA or a PA.
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