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Author Topic: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???  (Read 5215 times)

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diatonix

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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2018, 12:51:53 PM »

Here's an interesting method of tuning I found on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M53lSHVUpUM

He's using a pump for an inflatable bed.

What about the noise generated from the electric motor alone seen by the tuner?

Stephen

I've seen many horrible "tuning" tutorials on YouTube, but this one really makes the hairs on my neck stand up. How anyone can take such acts of vandalism seriously is beyond me.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 03:37:33 PM by diatonix »
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2018, 01:02:53 PM »


I've seen many horrible "tuning" tutorials on YouTube, but this one really makes the hairs on my neck stand up. How anyone can take such vandalism seriously is beyond me.

At the risk of being accused of thread drift, but I think this is relevant and of interest:
What is your recommended method of tuning, Diatonix
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The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
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j.b.c.

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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2018, 03:19:19 PM »

such vandalism

That guy uses those garbage files like he is shining shoes.

 
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j.b.c.

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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2018, 03:36:45 PM »

How does hanging the box off the workbench work in practice?

Following on from Edward's post:
Using the instrument's own bellows is going to give you the greatest accuracy of pitch because the internal dimensions and spacing of the bellows folds will be exactly those during real playing conditions.

...

I presume the most practical workflow is to tune the outside reeds in-situ, and then to tune the inside reeds to the outside reeds individually.

Or maybe that is most practical for just the klunkers, as needed, which seem to be the inside reeds on my box.
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Pete Dunk

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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2018, 03:51:01 PM »

At the risk of being accused of thread drift, but I think this is relevant and of interest:
What is your recommended method of tuning, Diatonix


Look through these videos for the answer to your question. You will also see a few beautiful boxes built by diatonix.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2018, 08:24:30 PM »

I presume the most practical workflow is to tune the outside reeds in-situ, and then to tune the inside reeds to the outside reeds individually....
Not really. You tune both outside (push) and inside (pull) reeds in the same pass, both in situ in the instrument. Usually I tune the inside reed first and then its matching outside reed. This is because I generally use the Italian-style hook reed lifter (I personally prefer it, other people prefer the German style) which means going in under the outside reed, so I tune the outside reed second, after all disturbance caused by the reed lifter has finished.

Look through these videos for the answer to your question.
Specifically, this video shows tuning both the inside and outside reeds, using both types of reed lifter.
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Andrius

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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2018, 08:48:22 PM »

Link to Photo album: one of my folk groups - Folk group „Linago“ of Vytautas Magnus University is visiting folklore festival in Dusetos this spring.
There was presentation of our book (ethnic scores) and concert in festival.
After the festival we visited workshop of last Lithuanian maker of "Petersburg accordions" Mykolas Sipavičius (1925-2014)
There are 14 photos from the workshop (you must skip about 2/3 photos to reach them).
Lot of interesting equipment, turning table between them.
Man in white - son of the Master.

BTW I am playing violin together with my daughter in really lot of photos; and my son plays red Erica :)
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j.b.c.

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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2018, 07:19:22 AM »

This guy's bench is cool because it holds the reedblock horizontally, in a good position for working on it without moving it.

https://youtu.be/cpiz6g8oDoI?t=166

Afinação and Afina seem to be the good youtube search terms.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2018, 08:28:55 AM »

This guy's bench is cool because it holds the reedblock horizontally, in a good position for working on it without moving it.

https://youtu.be/cpiz6g8oDoI?t=166

Afinação and Afina seem to be the good youtube search terms.

Yes - interesting and I can see it might be useful for approximate tuning. However, tuning with the block outside the instrument will usually result in a pitch which will be sharp of the target pitch. As we keep trying to say (but which seems to be largely ignored), the final tuning must be done with the reed blocks in situ in the instrument.

Further on in the video at about 5:28, he moves the treble end assembly to another bellows tuning bench which would give far more accurate results, especially if the tuning bench bellows was the same dimensions as the instrument bellows. This is a good set-up for tuning in situ. But in the video, he has removed two of the reed blocks first. That's going to give inaccurate results because the proximity effects of the other reed blocks on the tuning will be altered (i.e missing). You need to do the tuning with all the reed blocks in place, even though it might be a bit awkward to use the tuning tools in the restricted space. I can't really follow the language very well, so it's possible he is trying to demonstrate something else.
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j.b.c.

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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2018, 08:46:24 AM »

I can't really follow the language very well, so it's possible he is trying to demonstrate something else.

You can turn on subtitles autotranslate.

He explains that at each step the airflow changes and it effects the tuning.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2018, 09:09:19 AM »

I can't really follow the language very well, so it's possible he is trying to demonstrate something else.

You can turn on subtitles autotranslate.

He explains that at each step the airflow changes and it effects the tuning.
Thanks for the tip! However, the resulting translation of Portuguese into English is sometimes puzzling and occasionally hilarious. I can understand that reed blocks might translate as 'castles', and maybe air flow gets muddled up with 'water' flow. But I don't see how Iraq and Syria get incorporated :o. And as for 'armadillo voices'.... ;D

But he is making the point that final tuning must be done with everything in situ. I think the method he (sometimes?) uses is to make a note of the instrument tuning as received (the 'pre-tuning') and then calculates the offsets required to bring each reed into proper pitch. It is then possible to apply those offsets when tuning with the reed block outside the instrument, which should then get you somewhere close to the required pitch when the reed block is replaced in the instrument. I sometimes use this method myself with reeds that are otherwise very hard to get to. However, there will almost certainly be final adjustments needed which must be done in situ in the instrument. 
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2018, 09:19:20 AM »

I sometimes use this method myself with reeds that are otherwise very hard to get to. However, there will almost certainly be final adjustments needed which must be done in situ in the instrument.

It sounds like a feasible description of Hohner tuning - except that they don't...

Rob.
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Conjunto Dave

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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2018, 03:33:24 PM »

The tuning of a Corona II Classic at Hohner Germany in 2006.
http://www.peterunbehauen.de/p/07tuNing.html

Credit to Peter Unbehauen for taking these photographs.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2018, 05:00:36 PM »

The tuning of a Corona II Classic at Hohner Germany in 2006.
http://www.peterunbehauen.de/p/07tuNing.html

Credit to Peter Unbehauen for taking these photographs.

That's more like it.  (:)

The top photo shows one note being tested with the entire treble end of the melodeon being placed on the tuning bellows, which look to be of very similar dimensions to the instrument's own bellows. This will ensure a very close correspondence with the pitch of the note under actual playing conditions. 

The second photo shows an adjustment being made to a reed whilst it is in situ in the melodeon.
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diatonix

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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2018, 05:38:32 PM »

I really don't see the need for a tuning table when tuning reed blocks! There are absolutely no advantages whatsoever, on the contrary. I wish people would start understanding this, instead of praising youtube substitutes, however sophisticated they may be. What these guys are doing, is more easily, faster and more accurately and safely achieved with the blocks in situ. When tuning, one is (or should be!) always comparing  with neighboring reeds, constantly checking octaves and other intervals, very often using the register, if the box is equipped with one. This also means that the keyboard is a vital part of the process. Could someone explain to me how one is expected to tune a good, consequent tremolo without it, just to mention an example?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 06:01:47 PM by diatonix »
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Theo

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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2018, 05:56:07 PM »

For the task envisaged by the starter of this topic there will be a lot of pre-tuning work to get reeds close to the correct pitch.   A tuning table will be useful for that.  Also for someone just learning how to tune a tuning table makes access to the reeds a bit easier and you can more easily see what you are doing and how the tools work.     But I agree that tuning inside the instrument is essential.
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mselic

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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2018, 10:04:21 PM »

Recently I undertook a restoration project involving a Hohner HA114 in the rare key of A. All of the reeds were rusty, and the tuning was so far out that much of it was almost a semitone lower than it should have been.  The only option was to remove all the reeds, clean them, and then begin the task of tuning them back up to the correct pitch. Given the difficulty of working on these particular boxes, and the fact that most of the reeds needed to be raised in pitch (ie filing of reed tips), it made sense to begin the tuning process outside of the box using individual reedplates, an old reedblock, and a make-shift tuning bellows.

Since I didn’t know how far off the pitch of the reeds would be once installed back in the box, I tuned them perfectly on-pitch outside of the box as a starting point. However, once I had waxed all the reeds back in, I was quite surprised to discover the tuning of the reeds (according to my electronic tuner) had stayed the same! Everything was spot on, and there was only a little bit of adjustment needed here and there, and most of that was after a day or two. I used this same method on a few individual reedplates that needed to come out of another box for tuning (ie some of the pull note/higher piccolo reeds), only to discover once again that they didn’t need any adjustment once waxed back in place.  If there was a minute difference between the two readings, it was negligible. I’m sure this is not always the case, but it was in these particular instances.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 10:06:23 PM by mselic »
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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2018, 10:19:07 PM »

That’s interesting.  I have to ask this.  When you say the pitches were “spot on” what was the tolerance you were working to?
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mselic

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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2018, 04:26:47 AM »

That’s interesting.  I have to ask this.  When you say the pitches were “spot on” what was the tolerance you were working to?

Ok, “spot-on” is probably not the best phrase to use as it might mean different things to different people. I use a tuning app on my phone, and I believe that whatever difference there might have been in pitch inside and outside the instrument was definitely less than a cent. I guess the point I was trying to make was that I did not notice a difference either with my ear or with my tuner, but someone with more stringent tolerances may feel differently. I am curious now to investigate a little more closely, although for practical purposes (for me) I’m quite satisfied. Having said all that, I always tune with reeds in situ wherever possible.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2018, 07:25:00 AM »

That’s interesting.  I have to ask this.  When you say the pitches were “spot on” what was the tolerance you were working to?

Ok, “spot-on” is probably not the best phrase to use as it might mean different things to different people. I use a tuning app on my phone, and I believe that whatever difference there might have been in pitch inside and outside the instrument was definitely less than a cent. I guess the point I was trying to make was that I did not notice a difference either with my ear or with my tuner, but someone with more stringent tolerances may feel differently. I am curious now to investigate a little more closely, although for practical purposes (for me) I’m quite satisfied. Having said all that, I always tune with reeds in situ wherever possible.

'Less than a cent' is indeed not very much and while most people's ears cannot distinguish that sort of difference in pitch, it can influence the tremolo beat rate between two sets of reeds, particularly on the highest notes and when you are trying to achieve a light tremolo, where a difference of say 0.5 - 1 cent can be critical. When adjusting tremolo rate it's always best to use one's ears anyway; fine tuning adjustments in this case can be 1 cent or less, for slow tremolo rates on the higher pitched reeds.

However:
....Given the difficulty of working on these particular boxes, and the fact that most of the reeds needed to be raised in pitch (ie filing of reed tips), it made sense to begin the tuning process outside of the box using individual reedplates, an old reedblock, and a make-shift tuning bellows.

Since I didn’t know how far off the pitch of the reeds would be once installed back in the box, I tuned them perfectly on-pitch outside of the box as a starting point. However, once I had waxed all the reeds back in, I was quite surprised to discover the tuning of the reeds (according to my electronic tuner) had stayed the same! Everything was spot on, and there was only a little bit of adjustment needed here and there, and most of that was after a day or two. I used this same method on a few individual reedplates that needed to come out of another box for tuning (ie some of the pull note/higher piccolo reeds), only to discover once again that they didn’t need any adjustment once waxed back in place.  If there was a minute difference between the two readings, it was negligible. I’m sure this is not always the case, but it was in these particular instances.

So - you are not comparing like with like!
If I've understood you correctly, you have tuned the reeds by mounting them on an old reed block, brought them up to pitch outside the instrument, then transferred the reeds to the 'proper' reed block in the instrument and found the pitch to be the same, or very close to what was required. I think you have been lucky, purely by chance! ;). Even with similarly designed reed blocks, there will almost certainly be slight differences in the acoustic properties. In this case, I would postulate that those differences have been working in your favour!

Having said that, when working (sharpening) on the inside tiniest piccolo reeds where it could be injurious to attempt to use a reed lifter to pull the reed tongue through the reed plate slot, a safer method is to flip the reed plate temporarily in order to work on the reed and then flip it back afterwards. When doing this, I would determine the required tuning offset required first of all, then apply it to the flipped reed and hope that it remains the same offset when flipped back! Mind you - Diatonix (of this parish) reports that he is able to safely work on even the smallest reeds using a fine-scale German-type reed lifter. (:) See this video again.
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