Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???  (Read 2033 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

mselic

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2018, 05:38:40 AM »

I’m sure you are right, Steve. I will play closer attention the next time I need to tune any reeds outside the box to see exactly what’s going on.
Logged
Melodie in D, Hohner HA114s in G, D, A, Hohner Erica in A/D

mselic

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2018, 04:40:34 PM »

Theo - may I ask to what tolerances you adhere to when tuning?
Logged
Melodie in D, Hohner HA114s in G, D, A, Hohner Erica in A/D

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10526
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2018, 04:54:14 PM »

My target is to get the pitch of the reed sounding inside the instrument to between 0.0 cents below to +0.5 cents above the nominal pitch. If I do a pretuning of the reeds on a reedblock on my tuning table I usually see the pitch inside the instrument is between 1 and 3 cents lower than on the tuning table.

Not many electronic tuners will let you read differences that small.  Peterson iStroboSoft which I use reads to 0.1cent.  Many of the free electronic tuner apps, and cheap hand held, or clip on devices show a green light for “in tune” with +/- 2 cents or even as much as +/-5 cents.
The best handheld I found was the Korg OT 120 which I used for several years, but the Peterson app beats it hands down.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

mselic

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2018, 05:22:29 PM »

Thanks. The tuning app that use is called “Pitch”. It does show green within a particular range of tolerance, however at that point it will still show you how far off you are using Hz down to 0.1 Hz. Outside the green zone it gives readings in cents as well as Hz. I will check out your recommended tuner as well.
Logged
Melodie in D, Hohner HA114s in G, D, A, Hohner Erica in A/D

Gena Crisman

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 158
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2018, 05:36:45 PM »

Peterson iStroboSoft which I use reads to 0.1cent.
I will check out your recommended tuner as well.

I recall reading some time ago that there may be significant differences between their software on iOS (apple phones and tablets) versus other (android et al) platforms, at least based on reviews I read when investigating the software a while ago - the situation may well have changed, but, it seemed to be the iOS version was far surperior and the android version kind of bad.

edit - so as not to appear nebulous, my information source was the concerningly large number of reviews for the app on the google play store - many felt misled but often due to buying the app based on prior experience or friend recommendations coming from the iOS version. If you were to examine the features available on the Peterson website here: https://www.petersontuners.com/products/istrobosoft/ you can see that, as of current at least, basically every single one of the features is an iOS only in app purchase. My belief is that many who recommend this app on these forums do run it on an iPad tablet or iPhone, but, I'd be happy to be corrected because I have enough play store credit to just buy it outright. Generally tough, using it with an iOS device is probably the way to go, if you're able to.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 05:52:05 PM by Gena Crisman »
Logged

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10526
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2018, 06:36:40 PM »

Yes I use the Peterson app on iPad and iPhone, but I only occasionally use any of the in-app purchases.  Historic temperaments is the one I have used most, but it’s not terribly good because it still only uses a 12 tone scale, so for example in 1/4 comma meantime D# is the same as Eb, which is useless.
Also the Accordion tuning addon is also pretty much useless.  Having said that the basic app is truly excellent, and I can’t imagine needing to use anything else. 

Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10526
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2018, 06:39:27 PM »

Thanks. The tuning app that use is called “Pitch”. It does show green within a particular range of tolerance, however at that point it will still show you how far off you are using Hz down to 0.1 Hz. Outside the green zone it gives readings in cents as well as Hz. I will check out your recommended tuner as well.

0.1Hz is just a touch under .5cents,  so it’s getting close!
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Pete Dunk

  • Typo Expert
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2834
  • Primo D/G, Hohner B/E,B/C.Liliputs D/G, C/F, Bb/Eb
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2018, 09:00:34 PM »

Several years before the emergence of the IOS app I was given a Peterson StroboFlip as a very expensive present, I was blown away by the accuracy of this piece of hardware when fitted with a highly directional dynamic microphone like a Shure SM57, the inbuilt condenser mic was pretty iffy to be fair. A couple of years later I got an iPhone 4 and shortly thereafter discovered the iStroboSoft app costing just a few pounds, well under a tenner. There is no comparison between the two, the app using the inbuilt mic on the iPhone and later the huge display of the iPad is vastly superior to my magnificent but sadly outdated hardware.

Android v IOS is another debate but basically if the app is developed in the US then IOS wins hands down!

Edit: typo, what else!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 09:07:54 PM by Pete Dunk »
Logged
Squeezing in the Isle of Oxney, Kent, UK

j.b.c.

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2018, 06:23:28 AM »

I've got an older Peterson strobo-tuner in guitar pedalboard format.  Its OK.  It is sensitive to string tension.  A freshly struck string on a string instrument goes sharp because of the increased tension. 

I haven't played around with reeds enough to understand if they go sharper or flatter with increased volume?

I've found the opensource software tunertime to be much superior. ==> http://galexander.org/software/tunertime/

It is super-fast reading and accurate to a tiny fraction of a cent.

It is also a *free* android app.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.galexander.tunertime&hl=en

Logged

Steve_freereeder

  • Grumpy old git (sometimes)
  • Content Manager
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5478
  • MAD is inevitable. Keep Calm and Carry On
    • Lizzie Dripping
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2018, 07:28:01 AM »

I haven't played around with reeds enough to understand if they go sharper or flatter with increased volume?

Free reeds tend to go flat with increased bellows air pressure. The effect is most marked if the reed tip gap is a bit on the narrow side of optimum, when increased pressure may cause the reed to choke off completely.

The other effect you will notice is with the larger lower-pitched reeds, generally about B3 or lower, especially if they have a weighted tip. These tend to start flat (typically around 1 - 3 cents) and then rise to a proper stable pitch after a second or so. The larger and longer the reed, the more noticeable is this transient effect. As you might expect, it can be particularly annoying on those big low bass reeds. To compensate for this, human tuners (myself included) may deliberately tune the reed so its stable pitch is 1 - 2 cents sharp.

All reed tuning is a compromise. The art comes in understanding how to minimise the effects so that the result sounds good, even to a discerning and sensitive ear.
Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk

hickory-wind

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 296
  • Lives in NY USA near the Erie Canal
    • Bellingers' Button Boxes
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2018, 04:49:44 AM »


0.1Hz is just a touch under .5cents,  so it’s getting close!

True around A440 only.

Here are some examples:
@A2(110Hz)    0.1Hz=1.57 cents
@A3(220Hz)    0.1Hz=0.79 cents
@A4(440Hz)  0.1Hz=0.39 cents
@A5(880Hz)    0.1Hz=0.20 cents
@A6(1760Hz)  0.1Hz=0.10 cents
@A7(3520Hz)  0.1Hz=0.05 cents

For the curious a formula to calculate cents between two frequencies in Excel is cents=LOG(F1/F2,2)*1200 where F1 is the first frequency and F2 is the second.

Scott
Logged
too many boxes...please buy one, or two, or

RogerT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1327
  • can't walk past a box w'out picking it up...
    • Jolly Roger Accordions
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2018, 07:48:41 AM »

Just think though...before electronic tuning, tuners had reference reeds and their ears (:)

Steve_freereeder

  • Grumpy old git (sometimes)
  • Content Manager
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5478
  • MAD is inevitable. Keep Calm and Carry On
    • Lizzie Dripping
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2018, 08:35:03 AM »

For the curious a formula to calculate cents between two frequencies in Excel is cents=LOG(F1/F2,2)*1200 where F1 is the first frequency and F2 is the second.

Yes, that is the correct Excel syntax, but for further clarification here is the formula in 'ordinary' maths.
To convert frequency difference to cents difference:
cdiff = 1200 × log2 (f2 / f1)

or, if using logs to base 10:
cdiff = 1200 × 3.322038403 x log10 (f2 / f1)
            
Note that if f1 is assigned to a standard frequency, e.g. the Equal Temperament value (say), then if f2 is greater than f1, the cents difference will be positive, i.e. sharper than f1.
Conversely, if f2 is less than f1, the cents difference will be negative, i.e. flatter than f1.

This is useful to know if it is desired to calculate the required cents offsets either side of ET for 'Dedic' Viennese tuning.
It may look complicated for a non-user, but as Scott has indicated, it is easy to set up an Excel spreadsheet to calculate the cents offsets required for any desired amount of tremolo between the two reeds. The only additional information you need would be a table of frequencies of all the notes in ET. Here's one such table.
Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk

j.b.c.

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2018, 09:11:28 AM »

Just think though...before electronic tuning, tuners had reference reeds and their ears (:)

Mr. Danker from Brazil has some wonderful YouTube videos.

In this one he demonstates the pre-electronic tuning table ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCVTf4UoP-M

The waxing spoon ==> https://youtu.be/qTAoa7ftxYk
Logged

Steve_freereeder

  • Grumpy old git (sometimes)
  • Content Manager
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5478
  • MAD is inevitable. Keep Calm and Carry On
    • Lizzie Dripping
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2018, 10:23:01 AM »

The waxing spoon ==> https://youtu.be/qTAoa7ftxYk

This is not good working practice.  :o

First of all, heating the wax over an open flame as shown on the video runs a real risk of fire, which could easily escalate into something more serious, as there are other wax 'cubes' in close proximity underneath the flame lamp. One drop of burning wax could ignite the others.

Secondly, using this method, it is difficult to judge the correct and consistent temperature of the molten wax. Judging by the smoking of the wax in the spoon and the dark colour of the solidified wax around the reeds, he has got the wax too hot and it is starting to carbonise (burn!). This can lead to premature brittleness of the wax seal and its consequent failure.

Lastly, some form of fume extraction or other ventilation should be used if you plan on doing much waxing, other than fixing the occasional reed.

Here's how it should be done: video of Diatonix (of this forum) using a waxing spoon and wax heated in an electric melting pot. Note the pale yellow and even consistency of the melt and the lack of smoke!
Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk

j.b.c.

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2018, 10:35:43 AM »

The waxing spoon ==> https://youtu.be/qTAoa7ftxYk

This is not good working practice.  :o



Apparently, Mr Danker is a generational accordion builder whose workshop has been in the family for over 60 years.

I have personally had the misfortune of burning a workshop to the ground, with the resultant loss of decades of investment and ...

Some things don't give you 2nd chances.  That said, I suppose Mr. Danker knows quite well what he is doing.  If you listen carefully you can hear roosters crowing in the background.

And ... if you thought that was scary ... watch him recycle wax ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3QXfTkNeaQ

All very relaxed.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 10:52:51 AM by j.b.c. »
Logged

RogerT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1327
  • can't walk past a box w'out picking it up...
    • Jolly Roger Accordions
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2018, 01:57:49 PM »

I know of one tuner who uses a keyboard to sound the desired note, as a substitute for the reference reeds on old tuning tables. The point is, he is comparing pitches with his ears rather than by watching a readout on an electronic tuner. You need a reference pitch, obviously, but all the other related reeds e.g. octaves and beating + or - reeds can/could be tuned by ear. And also moving up and down in octaves (like you do when tuning a piano) can/might be done by ear (once you have your tuning scheme sorted, that is). Having said that, I watched a tuner at work in the Bulgari factory and he was all strobe tunered up, so to speak. But it was the bass end of a PA with a freebase/stradella converter, so ..erm...there were a lot of reeds, some at peculiar angles.

Steve_freereeder

  • Grumpy old git (sometimes)
  • Content Manager
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5478
  • MAD is inevitable. Keep Calm and Carry On
    • Lizzie Dripping
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2018, 04:21:37 PM »

I know of one tuner who uses a keyboard to sound the desired note, as a substitute for the reference reeds on old tuning tables. The point is, he is comparing pitches with his ears rather than by watching a readout on an electronic tuner. You need a reference pitch, obviously, but all the other related reeds e.g. octaves and beating + or - reeds can/could be tuned by ear. And also moving up and down in octaves (like you do when tuning a piano) can/might be done by ear (once you have your tuning scheme sorted, that is). ...
When working to Dedic/Viennese tuning, you can't easily tune octaves by ear because, on the individual reed banks, the M+ reeds 'octaves' and M- reeds 'octaves' are not true octaves apart. It's only when you combine the sound of the M+ and M- reeds that the perceived pitch kicks in and perceived octaves become true.

Example of octaves of note A, for a constant 4 Hz tremolo:

Octave    M- freq    M+ freq    Perceived pitch freq
A2          108 Hz     112 Hz        110 Hz
A3          218 Hz     222 Hz        220 Hz
A4          438 Hz     442 Hz        440 Hz
A5          878 Hz     882 Hz        880 Hz
A6          1758 Hz   1762 Hz      1760 Hz

Notice how the successive octave frequencies of the individual M- and M+ reeds are not exactly double the previous frequency, and hence will not sound 'in tune', and hence will be difficult, if not impossible, to determine by ear.
Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk

j.b.c.

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2018, 08:07:45 PM »

With string instruments inharmonicity is an issue for octaves. ==> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inharmonicity

The tuner I recommended upthread can stretch octaves to combat this problem.  It is critical to address this issue for piano tuning.

Inharmicity occurs wherever overtones are prevalent, when the overtones of the vibrating elements do not align with the theoretical ideal.

The sooner I build a tuning bench the sooner I can make my own experience in this matter.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 08:09:56 PM by j.b.c. »
Logged

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10526
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Pictures of your tuning tables/benches ???
« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2018, 08:16:01 PM »

Inharmonicity is not usually a problem with free reeds.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.