Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Thrupenny Bit]

Hi All,
As many regulars here on the ABC sub-forum know, I've transposed a new tune book into abc format over the summer. People here have been most helpful in pointing me in the right directon when I've come up against previously un-encountered terms within the abc format.
It's now time to get into the tunes on the box, and the abc engine will help support my sight reading by giving me a midi file, the reason I've 'abc'd ' the tunes.

One tune I'm playing with has
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
and has a lovely 'dotted' step-hop feel to it when played back through abcexplorer though as a title it's a quickstep.
When playing it in abcexplorer, I see the speed is at 100 whick I presume is the default setting.
It's got me thinking about speed.

I know titles of tunes are never an accurate means of working out speed.
I realise 'speed' is down to the player, a personal choice in reality and you can play any tune at any speed you wish and even take it outside it's pigeon hole if you so wish.
i.e play a waltz not at 3/4, or waltz speed etc.
As the tune is from an old manuscript then there's probably not a Youtube video of someone playing it, though as said above their speed could be a personal choice so not necessarily an accurate interpretation of the tune.

Therefore my question: is there a natural 'built in speed' to a tune dictated by itself?

cheers
Q

[Tone Dumb Greg]

Therefore my question: is there a natural 'built in speed' to a tune dictated by itself?

cheers
Q

My 2 pennyworth.

A tune will have a natural speed for you at any particular time.
Or, it may may have more than one natural speed.
You may decide you like one best, at a particular time.
The next time you play it you may feel different.
So, slow, slower, quick, quicker, slow.
There again, the chap next to you will have his own ideas.
The person the tune came from will have their own ideas.
They're all good.

I will say this, the natural speed at which I play a tune has changed since a got a bit of a better idea of what I'm doing.
I tend to play tunes slower now, than I did and slower than I could play them, if I chose.
But it can be fun to up the tempo and change the rhythm, and alter the time signature and slow things right down. Sometimes all in the same rendition.

[Pete Dunk]

I use my own set of default values for tunes based on the time signature. This is only a starting point and often needs to be adjusted to suit the piece. Please note that Q: values in ABC software are often very different to a setting you might use on a metronome. The default value in ABC Explorer can be set using the Options > Audio tab at the top, I have mine set at 140.


My personal starting values are as follows:


M:4/4
Q:1/4=140

M:3/4
Q:1/4=140

M:6/8
Q:3/8=100

M:9/8
Q:3/8=120

M:3/8
Q:1/8=140

M:C| (or M:2/2)
Q:1/2=120

M:2/4
Q:1/4=200

[Tone Dumb Greg]

Therefore my question: is there a natural 'built in speed' to a tune dictated by itself?

cheers
Q

I am now wondering if I completely misinterpreted your question
As Pete points out, if you want to assign a tempo you can use Q:
e.g.,Q:120 

The assigned tempo shows up top left of your score.
The beat length will default to the value assigned to default note length by  L:
L:1/8 L:1/4 etc.

You can also define the length of the your beat independently of the L value
e.g.,
Q:1/4=120
Q:1/8=120
etc.

Hopefully, one of my replies is relevant

[Thrupenny Bit]

Thanks both.
Pete - thank you that's what I wanted

Greg - both posts are relevant!
Your first reply sort of encompasses my dilemma. I realise I can play a tune at any speed but was wondering if the composers intended speed could be gleaned from the tune.
I too am trying to slow down a touch. My regular session often has some whistle and fiddle players who seem to play at warp speed. Therefore my slowing down needs to have a reason beyond a reaction to their speeding.
It  dawned on me there might be a built in speed to a tune.

Both I will start to set tunes according to Pete's rule of thumb.
I know he's very experienced in notation so appreciate his given starting values

As these are starting values, based on experience, I conclude you cannot predict a given speed from a tune. The speed comes from experience in those tunes and is variable depending on the tune.

Right... Off to twiddle with Q values!
Cheers
Q

[Thrupenny Bit]

Have tweaked said 4/4 tune, added a Q: 1/4=140
….and that sounds good!
A nice compromise, keeping it lively, bouncy and not too slow or fast.
Thanks.
Will investigate the other tunes with a bit more idea of at least where to pitch them within reason.
Q

[Thrupenny Bit]

ps.... is there any order or given standardisation to adopt?
i.e. going down the notation I seem to use .
T:
C:
S:
M:
L:
Q:
K:

is that where I should pop in the Q: value?
Q
wanting to get into good habits!

[Tone Dumb Greg]

Your order looks fine.
Did I recommend Guido's guide, available here?

http://abcplus.sourceforge.net/#ABCGuide

[Thrupenny Bit]

thanks.....
um  yes you have.
I thought this was a more esoteric (?) question as opposed to mechanical working of abc. Next time I'll check first!
Q.

[Gena Crisman]

My (granted inexperienced) take is that a tune's expected tempo & rhythm is going to depend on what you're using it for - listening to it, dancing to it, working to it etc. From that point, it will likely have been composed, ornamented or expanded upon based on that use, especially if it's been repurposed.

An unreasonably large amount of my repertoire is dance tunes, so, dance tempos run riot. Those are going to be about a 1/4= 140-150 for most step-hoppy type affairs, and for 4/4 reels and 6/8 jigs, would be 2/4 or 3/8 = 100 to 115. If a tune, as written, isn't comfortable to play at a high speed it might not be because you need to practice it more, it might have lots of written in ornamentation from when it was played at a slower speed, and if a tune is a slow dirge, it might be because it used to be played faster. You'll always encounter people who have different opinions.

Definitely I would Investigate the R: command, as there are a few values you can place after that to get your tune sounding a bit more 'correct' if it has a lilted rhythm and isn't written in that way. Also bear in mind that in ABC you can stop writing music halfway through and add a new M, K, Q, L etc line to control the nature of the music that appears after that line as part of the same tune - doubtless you've seen that with K:.

[george garside]

Whilst knowing bugger all about R commands or other  digital stuff I agree totally with Gena that the expected tempo and rhythm depends of what you are playing a tune for.That is a particular tune can have a number of 'natural speeds'  and changing from one to another requires a lot mote than simply speeding up or slowing down'

The rhythm that is, or should be, inherent in any music or tune  may well have to be modified or even completely rejigged  if the speed needs changing  otherwise it can come over as just a flat out splutter of the right notes in the right order - but not as the right length of the right notes in the right order and certainly not as the right length of gaps between the right notes in the right order.


 an example is teh pipetune 'farewell to the creeks'  It crops up in books as a 3/4 and also as a 6/8.   Easy - play it as a waltz or a March - but then it can be played as a haunting slow air  , a slow waltz,  a swirly waltz,  or changing from an underlying um pa pa rhythm to an underlying um pa rhythm  it can become a march (slow or quick)  a jig ,a two step, or even as a fast rapper tune


In other words  a tune should alway be played with a purpose in mind and that purpose (on that particular play of it) should be decided on and thought through befor a note is played.


There are lots of youtube vids  of tunes  being played for different purposes  , some played crappily but others taken from recordings of top hole players.  Also 'the session' website often has dots and abc for a veriety of version of tunes together with  sound tracks. 

george

[Thrupenny Bit]

I totally agree that a tune should be played with purpose in mind, and that, also, you can tweak it as George and Geena says so a 3/4 can become a 6/8 if that's what you choose.

My original question is slightly different.
Confronted with an unknown tune from an old manuscript, I'd quite like to start off trying to play it at a speed for which it was intended, or written with a speed in mind *before* I start altering the speed to suit my playing or any future intended purpose.
As it's taken from manuscripts somewhere from 1750 - 1850, the original purpose isn't clear.
I was wondering if there was an inherent speed gleaned from the written notes, and I think the answer is 'no'.

Pete's earlier 'ball park figure' gathered from his experience in notating many tunes, is a great help.
as there seems to be no inherent speed, his speeds give me a starting point.

The two tunes I'm messing around with are both 4/4 rhythms.
His given speed @ 140 fits one perfectly, the other sounds like a fiddler's gone into overdrive so have slowed it to 100 where it sits much better!

Having limited experience in notating tunes or reading the written note, it was a thought that occurred today whilst having a squeeze!
cheers
Q

 

[Anahata]

In particular with older music, you may find that typical speed vs. note value are different anyway. Around 1700 you'll find tunes written in 6/4 which are in current use as jigs and now written in 6/8 - that doesn't mean we play them twice as fast, simply that your average 1700s crotchet was faster than your average 20th/21st century crotchet. In confusing contrast, we find 19th century waltzes often written in 3/8 where we'd use 3/4 now (though it's quite likely that they played waltzes rather faster than we do now)

Early music (1600 and before) used even longer note values, which is why the longest note value you ever see these days (and quite rarely), which is 8 crotchets long (8 quarter notes or 2 'whole notes' in American musical terminology) is called a breve, which is Latin for "short"!

In classical music you'll also find extremes favoured by different composers. The best example I can think of now is Shostakovitch's 8th string quartet, whose first movement is mostly in 4/4 but those 4 beats go at a speed which would be quite respectable for semiquavers (sixteenth notes)  in other music - nearly two bars per second and quite frightening to play.

Incidentally, your problem is shared with classical musicians everywhere. Beethoven was one of the first composers to use tempo markings based on Maelzel's newly-invented metronome, but he, and many other composers since then, sometimes gave bizarre tempo markings which most performers don't follow because they're "obviously wrong". So tempo is very much open to interpretation everywhere. There are conventions, of course, but they vary from country to country and e.g. in England the speed of a rant increases as you go north...

[Thrupenny Bit]

chapter and verse.... fascinating!
Interesting that we are slower than past times, and that a 1700's crotchet was faster. Who'd have thought....!
Well, as long as I'm he company of such as Beethoven when worrying about speed, then I feel I'm in good company  .
Thanks as ever...…
Q

[Tone Dumb Greg]

thanks.....
um  yes you have.
I thought this was a more esoteric (?) question as opposed to mechanical working of abc. Next time I'll check first!
Q.

Phew. I addressed both aspects. Got it right for once.

Edit: And everything Gena said.

[Thrupenny Bit]

Just re-reading and had a thought:
Pete's initial reply says that an abc speed setting is not the same as a metronome setting.
I realise that, but.....is there a direct correlation between abc speed and metronome speed?
Just wondering.....
cheers
Q

[Anahata]

They should be the same, if the software's not faulty. Both systems express speed in <note value> = <no. per minute>
♩ = 120
or
Q: 1/4 = 120

[Thrupenny Bit]

oh right.... that makes life simple!
thanks
Q

[Bob Ellis]

I am tempted to answer Q's original question with a trite comment along the lines of "if it is a dance tune, play it at the appropriate speed for that dance; if it is a 'listening' tune, then it's a matter of personal taste." While there is some truth in that statement, it is not quite as simple as that. For instance, the speed at which a tune is normally played for dancing varies from area to area and has certainly varied considerably over time.

When I first started researching into the history of dance music from the Yorkshire Dales, I was surprised at the fast tempo at which tunes were played by people like Sam Fawcett on field recordings made in the early 1950s, which seemed to me to be too fast for dancing and seemed to lose some of the expression that can be put into a tune played at a more moderate speed. Initially, I put it down to factors like the age of the musicians and their nervousness performing in front of these new-fangled recording devices. It was only when I researched the Dales style of playing in greater detail that I realised that this fast tempo was the norm. Dancing was much more energetic than it is now. As Sam Fawcett himself said: "There was none of this lazy dancing. They had to put some vim into it to keep up!" What was considered an appropriate speed for a dance tune in the Dales in the 1950s, would now be considered too fast by most musicians and dancers.

Of course, different musicians in the past had different ideas about the tempo at which a tune should be played. There were strong feelings in the village of Stalling Busk in the 1950s and 1960s about the speed at which the waltz, Varsovianna, should be played. Locals felt that Harry Cockerill played it at the right speed, but they weren't impressed by the Beresford family and the Wallbank brothers, whom they considered to play it "at a gallop." So differences of opinion about tempo are nothing new. What matters is that a tune is played at a tempo that feels right to you and the people with whom you are playing it and, if it is being played for dancing, at a tempo that suits the dancers.

[Thrupenny Bit]

Bob, I totally agree with your comments.
'if it's a dance then play it for the appropriate speed for the dance...……...'

OK. Suppose you unearth  a manuscript - say 1750 - it's entitled something along the lines of ' 24 Tunes for the dances of the year 1750'.
Your sight reading I expect is better than mine, so you play a tune from the dots...... but at what speed?
i.e. you don't know which dance it was written for, it's just a dance tune.
You can play it bouncy, slower perhaps becomes a dirge, and faster still takes the tune before it gets stupidly fast and an exercise in playing notes fast.
Right - so what's the speed at which it was intended?
( ball park, give or take a few beats per minute )

That's the nub of my question!
I thought it was an interesting dilemma and so approached the sages here.
Q