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Author Topic: What to put on the flip side of a low G  (Read 4835 times)

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Stiamh

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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2018, 04:21:45 PM »

... the basic Anahata layout as shown here ... It preserves the pull A3 and pull D4...

I must be missing something: I see no pull D4 in that diagram.

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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2018, 04:23:41 PM »

Personally, I'd be lost without my low pull E (on the 1 row) now that I've got used to having it.
But Edward - one-row instruments are a law unto themselves anyway! Highly subversive!
Also the low E you describe (albeit sacrificing a pull D), is a reasonable and not uncommon modification to a one-row (in D). But you do lose the D drone possibilities when linking the LH and RH together. And a big part of one-row playing is using RH harmonies!
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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2018, 04:28:47 PM »

... the basic Anahata layout as shown here ... It preserves the pull A3 and pull D4...

I must be missing something: I see no pull D4 in that diagram.
Argh! Yes you're right! Fingers were typing before brain was properly in gear, sorry. The C4 is the replacement for the pull D4 of course.
I just like to drone (on and on....)  :|bl
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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2018, 04:35:05 PM »

Seriously though...

The basic Anahata layout is a good compromise to the standard D/G layout but I would be very wary about adapting it further. The disadvantages of the losses then start to pile up, as the OP has noted several posts earlier.
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Helena Handcart

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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2018, 05:35:03 PM »

Seriously though...

The basic Anahata layout is a good compromise to the standard D/G layout but I would be very wary about adapting it further. The disadvantages of the losses then start to pile up, as the OP has noted several posts earlier.

Yup, it's a great layout. I have been slowly converting all my boxes to it, have also now converted my partner (not literally) so his boxes are being changed too. This would of course increase the likelihood of me nicking his boxes, 'cept mine are better  (:)
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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2018, 07:08:59 PM »

Seriously though...

The basic Anahata layout is a good compromise to the standard D/G layout but I would be very wary about adapting it further. The disadvantages of the losses then start to pile up, as the OP has noted several posts earlier.

Erm, I missed saying that. It's not what I meant to say and is different to what I think. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I did say that I was quite happy to depart from standard tunings to make it possible to play what I want to play.

When I look at it, my proposed layout is, almost identical with the layout I already have on my 2.4. Apart from some minor differences forced by the lack of the 4 extra buttons.   On the 2.4 this note is on the helper row, as is the F4.

I don't see any serious problems with it, as a compromise to allow me to play what I play, already, on the 2.4 on the 2 row. I won't even have to adjust my fingering except on the occasional tune. 
 
What are the piling up disadvantages? I can't see any worth worrying about. All I lose are things I don't use and don't care about. Specifically, F5, G6 and C6 on the treble row. I expect I've tried them out, but they are pretty much unused. I really think I won't miss them. If I have to have them I'll play another box. I would miss F4 and my pull D a lot more.
I've dumped the B major chord (with a taped off 3rd) for a B minor. I've got a B minor on the 2.4 and like it far more than the Bm7 option. I've heard the arguments in favour of Bmaj, but I find them totally unconvincing. I don't care about playing minor harmonic whatsits on a morris box. I want something fit for purpose.

As has been noted, compromise is inherent in melodeon layouts. Getting what you need is a large part of the fun. I would add, there's little that can't be easily reversed.
 
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Gena Crisman

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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2018, 07:18:48 PM »

Thanks for your comments. You have all raised points that have helped me think things through. Maybe, as Devil's advocate.

The instruments I've had have had a full size chamber located at the start of the reed block, but, sometimes a special long plate with short reeds is placed there, sometimes a smaller plate is located there with the rest blocked off by a glued in wooden insert, so, your options are probably going to depend on exactly what your instrument has in it. Putting an accidental at the squeaky end of the keyboard will almost definitely require a reed block modification.

However, in principal at least, getting a low G/A plate would let you decide after the fact if you wanted it instead of the accidental plate you mostly don't use, or instead of your F/D plate, or if you intended to part with the instrument. But I feel it just doesn't quite work for you - if you're adding both a low G and a low A, then you are going to have to compromise two things somewhere, and you only seem truley happy to part with the F5. Have you considered the fate of your G#4 at all? You said you use your Bb4, but I didn't see you mention its companion reed, so far as I could tell. Could perhaps it be left on the shelf in favour of something else?
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2018, 09:25:16 PM »

Thanks for your comments. You have all raised points that have helped me think things through. Maybe, as Devil's advocate.

The instruments I've had have had a full size chamber located at the start of the reed block, but, sometimes a special long plate with short reeds is placed there, sometimes a smaller plate is located there with the rest blocked off by a glued in wooden insert, so, your options are probably going to depend on exactly what your instrument has in it. Putting an accidental at the squeaky end of the keyboard will almost definitely require a reed block modification.

However, in principal at least, getting a low G/A plate would let you decide after the fact if you wanted it instead of the accidental plate you mostly don't use, or instead of your F/D plate, or if you intended to part with the instrument. But I feel it just doesn't quite work for you - if you're adding both a low G and a low A, then you are going to have to compromise two things somewhere, and you only seem truley happy to part with the F5. Have you considered the fate of your G#4 at all? You said you use your Bb4, but I didn't see you mention its companion reed, so far as I could tell. Could perhaps it be left on the shelf in favour of something else?

Last point first. The G#4/Bb4 combination isn't affected. It stays the same. I use it a lot. I like where it is. Can't say the same for the G#5/Eb5 button, though.

I already know the low G/A reed should fit in the first button position, on the G row, with minimal surgery. I already have it in another box. I don't think it's an issue from a technical point of view.

The unknown is putting the mid range reed on the small reed end. I think there will be room, two minutes with a chisel might be needed,  but I've never come across anyone who's actually done it. People seem to be put off by the "oh, I desperately need it for such and such" argument.

Just out of interest, is there anyone out there who really couldn't survive without G6/E6 on an MM, D/G box? I have seen an enormous number of videos of people playing marvelous tunes on MM D/Gs but, seriously, I have never seen one where the player made any real use of this button (ducks back down behind the parapet). Please, please show me examples to prove I'm wrong. Do you really use it Steve? Do you use  it Gena? Anyone? I've just spent a pleasant hour browsing Anahata's youtube library (I'm far too easily diverted) and I can't spot him using it once. I never use it and I've never seen anyone use it. Certainly, I've never heard anyone use it. It's seriously squeaky.

[Edit: Just to clarify, the only changes to my current layout I am proposing are 1. To replace the standard F5/Eb5 combination  with a G3/A3 combination, 2. To replace the D6/E6 with an E5/Eb5 combination (I think I mistakenly identified the current reeds  as. D6/C6. Nobody seemed to notice). 3. The Bm bass chord isn't really much of a change. It's B5 at the moment and it will match my 2.4 if I make it Bm. More people should try it. It sounds much better for Bm tunes.

I know I will get on  with the note layout on the low end. It's the same as my current layout in all the respects that matter. I think the accidentals arrangement on the high end will work, as well. The more I think about it, the more I like it. I can't believe no one has tried it before. It's not as if it isn't easily reversible. It's a much better outcome than I expected when I started this thread. All gain and no pain.

And thanks for keeping up the Devil's advocate, Gena. It's appreciated.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 10:12:22 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2018, 09:45:13 PM »

G6/C6?
Do you mean G6/E6 ? I don't go there much, it's true, and my Dino Baffetti hybrid doesn't even have that button.
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Gena Crisman

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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2018, 10:19:39 PM »

Wouldn't the G3/A3 reed be much larger than the current F5/Eb5, so fitting it may require some surgery?
Good point. I don't know how the reed frame sizes compare or whether the block tapers. I shall have to look.
vs
I already know the low G/A reed should fit in the first button position, on the G row, with minimal surgery. I already have it in another box. I don't think it's an issue from a technical point of view.

Well, OK; I'm assuming some wires got crossed somewhere, given the above?

Anyway, I'm afraid that, personally, I do seem to use all of my buttons, although, perhaps not for morris. But, I've been working on a tune that goes from a G4 up to a D6, and have several tunes in D and Bm that use the high C#, and have another project that uses that high F#... I gotta say I definitely spend some time up there, even on an MM instrument. But, I guess I could drop that first tune by an octave if I had a low G scale, and maybe work around the absences otherwise... Importantly though, I do use both the high E and high G button, specifically when ending tunes, as part of a high 1 + 3 + 8 chord, those that might end normally the G5 or E5 (eg Three around Three and Weasel's Revenge). Note that Anahata plays a 19 button instrument with a 4th button start, so, he wouldn't actually have that top G6/E6 anyway (edit; beaten by the man himself!). I'd survive without it for morris, I suppose, but, well, I'm not sure I'd really call that living... heh. I also currently play a 19 button instrument, but on 3rd start, and while I'd like the low G scale, I do use the high notes in question.

I've definitely seen layouts with squeaky end swapped for accidentals though, you're not completely off piste or anything, I don't think. I also know someone who's top buttons don't even work and they're getting on just fine.

edit to add - peep the layout here http://melodeonmusic.com/2012/02/18/inside-and-out-part-1-the-super-preciosa/ for example, squeaky end accidental plate.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 10:24:23 PM by Gena Crisman »
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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2018, 10:38:25 PM »

at risk of opening up a different can of worms I  am considering  altering  one of my DG boxes to 5th button start  with  push repeated every 4 buttons and pull every 5 so providing  a low D on the D row and low G on the G row.

I can't see any problem losing the top squeeky button on each row  and would be interested to know if anybody else has gone for 5th button start and what if any snags has it resulted in


george
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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2018, 11:17:30 PM »

G6/C6?
Do you mean G6/E6 ? I don't go there much, it's true, and my Dino Baffetti hybrid doesn't even have that button.

Yes. See my revised post. I take back my comment about no one noticing.
I have been watching you play a Dino on a load of recent looking videos. Is that the one? I didn't realise it wasn't a "standard" 4th button start. Sounds nice. I don't know what hybrid means unless it's a rose.

Quote from: Gena

Well, OK; I'm assuming some wires got crossed somewhere, given the above?


Gena, you're right, of course (:) To clarify, I am talking about two different boxes one Pokerwork and one Saltarelle. When I made the earlier post I hadn't really twigged to how similar my proposal is to the Saltarelle layout. I am assuming the Pokerwork is similar to the Saltarelle. I don't know for certain, but I know a man who will.
I'm interested in hearing how your high tunes sound. To me, those top buttons just sound like squeaks. I can't imagine using G6 to play Weasel's Revenge, I never go higher than G5. Different styles, I suppose.

I'm also sure that there will be loads of people who can prove the lie to what I said about the G6/E6, but I haven't seen any examples yet. So far as the F5 goes. I have played tunes that use it, but they haven't stuck and I don't miss them.
Bear in mind, too, that I am looking at a box dedicated to morris (and, I suppose, apres morris). Something has to go.

So far as reselling  a non-standard box goes, this particular change isn't an issue. It is easily reversible and I'm not planning on selling it, anyway.

Quote from: George
at risk of opening up a different can of worms I  am considering  altering  one of my DG boxes to 5th button start  with  push repeated every 4 buttons and pull every 5 so providing  a low D on the D row and low G on the G row.
I can't see any problem losing the top squeeky button on each row  and would be interested to know if anybody else has gone for 5th button start and what if any snags has it resulted in

5th button start is pretty much where my thinking started. I decided it wouldn't suit me, partly because I can imagine using the high C#  button on the D row but more because it would make the Bb an awkward stretch whereas, moving the Eb5  to the high end should make it easier to reach. I may not not be thinking that through to it's ultimate conclusion, though. I don't  think it affects your plan, either.
I said that my proposed layout is substantially the same as the 2.4 row. The biggest difference is that the 2.4 row has a full low D scale, as well as the low G.
[Edit: The low G scale matches the middle G scale, except for E. The low D scale is bit quirkier to preserve my precious pull D]
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 11:24:47 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2018, 11:37:16 PM »

Giving you far more to think about than you want ... Here's a 5th button start on the G row ... Courtesy of an additional button at the start of the G-row.

This is Anahata + Low F/Eb on the extra button.

Cheers Greg!

« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 11:50:43 PM by Microbot »
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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2018, 12:20:39 AM »

Greg - you seem to have thought through everything carefully and decided on a layout which works for you and your intended purpose.

If you decide to go for replacing the G6/E6 at the top end of the G-row with E5/Eb5 you will, as previously discussed, need to modify (enlarge) the end of the G-row reed block to take the larger reeds. This could impinge upon the reed block anchoring clamp which will also need to be altered.

If the clamp is the older type consisting of a dog-leg steel shaft threaded into a wood block, the clamping position will be raised, and so you will also need to check that the altered clamp position does not foul the ends of the internal bellows fold - risk of air leaks and damage to the bellows. I know this because I have recently had to make a similar alteration. (Thanks for your assistance, Pete!)

On the other hand, if the clamp is the more recent 'claw and screw' type, you should be OK regarding clearance.
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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2018, 12:32:01 AM »

I have been watching you play a Dino on a load of recent looking videos. Is that the one? I didn't realise it wasn't a "standard" 4th button start. Sounds nice. I don't know what hybrid means unless it's a rose.

That's the one. It looks like an Oakwood / Dino Baffetti Binci (same case) but it's actually one of 5 prototypes for the Oakwood/Dino 'Super' that the Music Room subsequently produced in a new and different case. So the reeds are different, it's not got the Binci brightness and volume but it will play both quiet and loud, and is very responsive.

It is a 4th button start, which is why it doesn't have the G6/E6 button at the squeaky end.

Re 5th button start: problem is reaching for the accidentals, unless you have big hands or a close button pitch.
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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2018, 12:34:26 AM »

Here's a 5th button start on the G row ... Courtesy of an additional button at the start of the G-row.

This is Anahata + Low F/Eb on the extra button.

Nice!  :|glug
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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2018, 12:58:07 AM »

I'm interested in hearing how your high tunes sound.

Well, for morris, I'm specifically talking about ending eg the final B of Three Around Three like this:
Code: [Select]
X:101
T:Three Around Three
M:4/4
Q:140
L:1/8
K:G
"G"d2 ef gf ed|"C"e2 e2 e2 d2|"A"ef g2 "D"fg af|\
%%MIDI gchord fccz
"G"g2 b2 .[g'4g4]|]

We finish the dance that we use it for with a punchy sticks into the ground ending and I think this works pretty nicely.

I'll see if I can't provide some other melodeon based examples when it's not midnight, but I guess I get pretty high in the final A variation in this soundcloud of Tripping Upstairs if that helps, that's up to high D on the G row, but uses the high C# and not the high C natural, so, technically not needing 2nd or 1st highest G row button (and apologies for the slightly nervous bass rhythm). I can tell you that I rather enjoy finding particularly difficult things to play, and I don't currently know anything that would really need to sound that G/E button on its own but, I mostly think of that as a challenge. I do see it used in harmonies though - some close, some more distant - its squeaking metered by lower pitched notes, and that's also how I currently use it.

The reality of if others do or don't use them in a capacity that seems to sufficiently justify their existence shouldn't really affect your choices though! If you're not using it already I'm pretty sure that for a morris box you're not going to miss it.
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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2018, 09:56:24 AM »

 So far as reselling  a non-standard box goes, this particular change isn't an issue. It is easily reversible and I'm not planning on selling it, anyway.

Quote from: George
at risk of opening up a different can of worms I  am considering  altering  one of my DG boxes to 5th button start  with  push repeated every 4 buttons and pull every 5 so providing  a low D on the D row and low G on the G row.
I can't see any problem losing the top squeeky button on each row  and would be interested to know if anybody else has gone for 5th button start and what if any snags has it resulted in

5th button start is pretty much where my thinking started. I decided it wouldn't suit me, partly because I can imagine using the high C#  button on the D row but more because it would make the Bb an awkward stretch whereas, moving the Eb5  to the high end should make it easier to reach. I may not not be thinking that through to it's ultimate conclusion, though. I don't  think it affects your plan, either.
 [/quote]

I always use my thumb for the chin end accidentals  as so doing makes them  reachable wherever the hand is  (because the thumb has much greater 'side stretch' then the fingers)   Just as an example using the thumb makes the C part (in key C on G row) of the bluebell polka  much easier.

george
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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2018, 10:53:00 AM »

I have very small hands, and with a 4th button start have got used to getting to the chin end accidentals.
I approach a new tune with the thought that I need to arrange my fingering to enable me to reach the top buttons. I use my first finger and usually with a flick of the wrist I'm there.
With no box available, I would think a 5th button start is a loooong stretch, possibly a stretch too far for me...... but longer fingers/larger hands should be ok. Maybe. It's surprising that with practice what you can do.
Though if you don't use the top accidentals does that matter?
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Re: What to put on the flip side of a low G
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2018, 11:06:22 AM »

Quote from: George

I always use my thumb for the chin end accidentals  as so doing makes them  reachable wherever the hand is  (because the thumb has much greater 'side stretch' then the fingers)   Just as an example using the thumb makes the C part (in key C on G row) of the bluebell polka  much easier.

george

Yes your right George.
I do tend to use my thumb on the Bb, especially if I'm in a hurry. I just checked out the practical reach and it's a lot further than I realised.
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