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[george garside]

indeed fair points by Roger and Pat.  Yes adding DG to Bc  required ,as far as I can remember, very little  effort, adding BCC# only needed  getting the hang of the extremely useful 'reversals'

To save confusion/nasty accidents I tend to play DG mostly but not exclusively 'on the row'  particulalry  as that helps the 'bounce' for morris and indeed 'english' ceilidhs. That way my internal wiring seems to know instinctivley which system I am playing at any particular time.


The challenge with learning any 'new to  you' instrument is indeed getting from the right notes in the right order to ?performance/gigging standard  . It can be a slog or a highly enjoyable adventure depending on  how the individual looks at things!

george

[MatlockBather]

I spent quite a bit of time at the playgroup this weekend talking to folks about my B/C boxes. Most of the questions started out with 'how do you manage to play English tunes on a B/C?'... Answer: press the appropriate button and wiggle the bellows in much the same way you do on a D/G!

Really the differences boil down to D/G (G/C, C/F etc) boxes are bass driven boxes and you often choose the treble button based on the bass you want whereas for B/C there is no decision to make as there is very few repeated notes and as such it is a melody driven system.

I think its a bit of a shame that more people who just want to knock out some tunes and aren't too bothered about self accompaniment are put off playing B/C's.

[gettabettabox]

It is one thing to play B/C ,regarding where the notes are and where your fingers go ,but to make good music on it  is a completely different thing,it is not easy  for most people.

This comment sums it up for me...Whenever I knock out a hornpipe in G on the B/C system, I delude myself into thinking that I have the system nailed.     (the B/C system does suit these particularly well.)
However, this limited ability does come into play when shifting several G tunes up into A on my C sharp/D box. 

[george garside]

I spent quite a bit of time at the playgroup this weekend talking to folks about my B/C boxes. Most of the questions started out with 'how do you manage to play English tunes on a B/C?'... Answer: press the appropriate button and wiggle the bellows in much the same way you do on a D/G!

Really the differences boil down to D/G (G/C, C/F etc) boxes are bass driven boxes and you often choose the treble button based on the bass you want whereas for B/C there is no decision to make as there is very few repeated notes and as such it is a melody driven system.

I think its a bit of a shame that more people who just want to knock out some tunes and aren't too bothered about self accompaniment are put off playing B/C's.

When playing for morris or ceilidh or old time dance I only occasioanly ,eg when playing a waltz, choose the treble buttons to get ?better? bass  preferring to use the bass (tapped very lightly)  as slightly tuned percussion for jigs, reels, hornpipes etc as I feel that provides a much better 'bounce' to the tunes

george 


george

[boxer]

just knocking tunes out?  to me, that's a chilling echo of some of the festival sessions I've witnessed. 

[george garside]

just knocking tunes out?  to me, that's a chilling echo of some of the festival sessions I've witnessed.

Indeed - but then we can't all be perfect!


george

[boxer]

we can't George, but we can try to do things better than we presently get away with (I am particularly mindful of my own musical offerings).  Probably, the fact that I never got past Base Camp on D/G  motivates me to try a bit harder on B/C.  It's about the journey, not the destination. 

[Winston Smith]

"It's about the journey, not the destination."

But, for some of us, it is (more or less) just about "knocking tunes out"! Admittedly, I'd like to knock them out a bit better than I do now (especially when I'm recording them, haha!) but my main purpose is to enjoy what I'm doing. Hopefully, on the occasions that I play in public, my listeners can also enjoy it, either singing along or just listening. We don't all want to be the next Andy Cutting, or whatever.

[Stiamh]

Knocking out tunes on a B/C - time for another Damien Mullane clip*.

Anybody know what the second tune is, sandwiched between the Kylebrack Rambler and The Gladstone?

*I've set the melodeonista baiting timer.

[Tufty]

"Really the differences boil down to D/G (G/C, C/F etc) boxes are bass driven boxes and you often choose the treble button based on the bass you want whereas for B/C there is no decision to make as there is very few repeated notes and as such it is a melody driven system".

I have never regarded a D/G as bass driven and rarely chose the right hand based on the bass, perhaps because of the players I was inspired by and the music I wanted to play (mostly East Anglian and Dartmoor style). The modern, bass driven style just does not seem to give the traditional sound to this music. For ITM I much prefer the sound of the one row to any other box but I realise that this is very much a minority opinion. G/C and C/F I do treat differently, perhaps because I get most of my tunes from CBA players. For me it depends on the style of music you want to play rather than the technical limits of the instrument.

[george garside]

"Really the differences boil down to D/G (G/C, C/F etc) boxes are bass driven boxes and you often choose the treble button based on the bass you want whereas for B/C there is no decision to make as there is very few repeated notes and as such it is a melody driven system".

I have never regarded a D/G as bass driven and rarely chose the right hand based on the bass, perhaps because of the players I was inspired by and the music I wanted to play (mostly East Anglian and Dartmoor style). The modern, bass driven style just does not seem to give the traditional sound to this music. 

I agree but of course everybody to there own so to speak.  I do sometimes wonder why some of the bass driven enthusiasts don't go over to a continental chromatic box

geeorge

[richard.fleming]

Knocking out tunes on a B/C - time for another Damien Mullane clip*.

Anybody know what the second tune is, sandwiched between the Kylebrack Rambler and The Gladstone?

*I've set the melodeonista baiting timer.

No Stiamh but it sounds like another Finbarr Dwyer tune - that's where I'd look first.

[KLR]

Or Richard Dwyer.  thesession is where to ask these things, though.

Learning to play in D on the B/C after learning C#/D and A/D/G was the most confusing thing I've ever tried on any musical instrument; I'd think about the D fingering on a D row and suddenly couldn't remember how to play the B/C fingering any more, it took about 4 months of nightly practice to really get the hang of it.

I really like the A/D/G for Irish music, too, you can play staccato triplets in all kinds of places, ABA for instance, that don't happen on the C#/D, and can play legato or staccato as desired; and 12 basses are very nice, too.  But even my Castagnari had a semi-muffled G row, something like Julie Delaney is only going to be easy for an anorak like Tim Edey, and 3rd row boxes don't have low C or G, so it comes up short, too.  The wind instruments used in ITM don't have those low notes either, though, unless you have a nice flute with a working footjoint.

Without question borrow a semitone box if you can before going shopping.  One of the best pointers for this came from Stiahm who pointed out the obvious fact that if you have a C#/D you can practice the B/C fingering no problem - it's just that the music will come out in E and A instead of D and G.

Amaj on the B/C isn't as torturous as many make it sound; some tunes are real headaches, yes, Foxhunter's Reel for instance, which is bar after bar of pulling and twisted fingering; but most other tunes I tried weren't so bad.

[Gromit]

Foxhunter's Reel for instance, which is bar after bar of pulling and twisted fingering; but most other tunes I tried weren't so bad.

On a B/C - I don't find it tricky in Amaj, playing with the E's on the push there's a push to every 2 or 3 pulls and I can't see any twisted fingering but I prefer it in Gmaj where there's more push and pull it's punchier.

[KLR]

The 3rd part, where you have to go from A on the inside to F on the outside, then fbb2g# afec ABcA Bcde fBB2.  Always feels irksome.  C#D just feels better for Amaj - including classic Scottish tunes like Iron Man.

[george garside]

playing in A on a BC is not difficult. Its simply  abdea on the C row and C# F#G# on the B row. This 'scale' is facilitated, depending on the tune being played by having B and E in either bellows direction. Practicing the scale using the alternative B and E helps   and then choosing which of the alternatives best suits bellows management and fingering for a particular tune.   eg when playing the Athol Highlanders in A  using the push E (on the backside of D!)greatly reduces bellows movement for the simple reason that there ar several E's in the tune. The fingering  is  not a problem.


george

[boxer]

It's handy to be able to go up a gear by changing key after the second repeat of a tune.  As there are readily accessible G#'s across the length of the keyboard that allow note for note similarity in the execution of a normally G maj tune in A maj, B/C favours changes from G to A (I'm sure that if I don't say that you could technically change from any key to any other on B/C, someone will remind me, but it's a fact that G maj is a very common fiddle key and the home turf of many fourth-apart players). 

Although my intention when I do this is to play the tune uniformly in both keys, the difference in how much more readily the tune flows in A is striking.  It's been the work of more than a dozen years for me to make G flow as smoothly as I like, and it's taken as long to suppress the instinct to play excessively long sequences of draw notes in A that risk running out of bellows.

Unlike George, instead of using the push E to save air in A maj, I chiefly use the draw E, but cheat and steal a bit of quiet space at the end of a phrase to allow a quick exhalation, if needed.  It's probably easier for me to do that because I don't use the basses very much at all, so they're not disrupted by the sudden brief lack of air. 

[up-fiddler]

Once again, I extend my gratitude to those who have added on.

It looks like I may be able to borrow the b/c for a couple weeks. Kudos to Stiamh and others for that suggestion.

Cheers,
Dave

[george garside]

It's handy to be able to go up a gear by changing key after the second repeat of a tune.  As there are readily accessible G#'s across the length of the keyboard that allow note for note similarity in the execution of a normally G maj tune in A maj, B/C favours changes from G to A (I'm sure that if I don't say that you could technically change from any key to any other on B/C, someone will remind me, but it's a fact that G maj is a very common fiddle key and the home turf of many fourth-apart players). 

Although my intention when I do this is to play the tune uniformly in both keys, the difference in how much more readily the tune flows in A is striking.  It's been the work of more than a dozen years for me to make G flow as smoothly as I like, and it's taken as long to suppress the instinct to play excessively long sequences of draw notes in A that risk running out of bellows.

Unlike George, instead of using the push E to save air in A maj, I chiefly use the draw E, but cheat and steal a bit of quiet space at the end of a phrase to allow a quick exhalation, if needed.  It's probably easier for me to do that because I don't use the basses very much at all, so they're not disrupted by the sudden brief lack of air.

stealing a bit of quiet space to move the bellows is far from cheating  and is  an important  part of semitone box playing,  It can also help the phrasing of a tune.  Unlike,say, a piano box  and indeed many other instruments  where there are no 'alternatives'  I think that with a '' new to you'' tune  once the right notes in the right order is sorted to then more orless go back to the drawing board and experiment with the choice of accidentals  for best bellows control and/or easiest fingering which can be different from tune to tune or even for different parts of the same tune.  SAme goes for cross row playing on a DG or whatever.

This applies even more to the BCC# as apart from GDA there are two of everything which is indeed very handy.

george

[Stiamh]

Once again, I extend my gratitude to those who have added on.

 
I don't think anyone is listening to your original question any longer, Dave. What you see here is a bunch of B/Cers commiserating and trying to convince themselves and everyone else they are not crazy...

   Just kidding.

... the difference in how much more readily the tune flows in A is striking.

No kidding.    G is pretty much a push key on B/C. Maybe Am (actually A dorian) - with C natural on the push - is the ideal compromise in terms of flow and air balance. (B dorian for for me on C#/D.) I'm not surprised that so many of Paddy O'Brien's signature tunes are in that key. It's also why B/Cers play John Brosnan's reel in Am where C#/Ders do it in Bm.

Mind you, I find that each tune writes its own story regardless of the nominal key, depending on the predominance or otherwise of certain notes. The other day I found myself by accident playing Sweeney's Buttermilk in Am (Gm for B/Cers) rather than the usual Bm and found it just as easy and perhaps more fun without all the pull passages. I suppose that tells me I'm never going to jump ship for B/C.